Been informed not to use copper grease

father_jack

between two different metals, specificially on pedal axle/crank arms (alu crank arms, Chromoly axle) Is this true?

bill57

Cobblers. Copper grease is an ant-seize grease. Where are you most likely to get seizures? Between two different metals, because of electrolytic corrosion. I think you'll find that most on here use it happily, better that than no grease!

father_jack

They didn't say use no grease, just not copper grease. Said CV, lithium or moly something grease

Velonutter

I have used Copper Grease for years, superb stuff!

reba6768

Have always used copper slip on frame threads, especially on Ti frames - never had a problem of anything ever 'self' loosening or corroding.

DaSy

I use it extensively on all contacts between dissimilar metals on my bike, in particular pedals and bb threads, and have never had other than desirable results; namely they stay put when I want them to, and undone when I require it.

Monty Dog

I think this is down to people's interpretation that Copaslip actually contains copper and would in some way encourage bi-metallic corrosion - whereas in fact it doesn't and as others have said, is an excellent anti-seize. However, if you're talking about tapered-axle BBs, then there is a long-standing debate as to whether you apply grease or not - but that's a whole different argument!

DaSy

Monty Dog wrote:

I think this is down to people's interpretation that Copaslip actually contains copper and would in some way encourage bi-metallic corrosion - whereas in fact it doesn't

Montydog, this is taken from the the Molyslip site, makers of Copaslip -

Copaslip®
Copaslip® (often misspelled as copperslip or coppaslip) - the original anti-seize compound. It is a very high temperature (up to 1100°C) anti-seize assembly compound, bentone based non-melt grease with copper, polybutene, and anti-corrosion additives.

freehub

It's fine to use, but not on parts that are moving, for example on ball bearings, or in jockey wheels, you'd not want to put it on those.

Ollieda

Did whoever tell you this imediatly turn round and say "What you must buy is this super grease that we sell, it's the only thing you must use on your bike"

Mister W

I've used copper ease for years on cars, motorbikes and bicycles. I think that whoever told you not to use it is talking out of their @rse. It's the perfect stuff to use on pedal cranks because it will stop them seizing up so you're less likely to damage the cranks when you take the pedals off. INHO it's better than using a normal grease because these will dramatically reduce the friction between the surfaces which can result in you overtightening the the pedal (which will damage the crank).

freehub

Mister W wrote:

I've used copper ease for years on cars, motorbikes and bicycles. I think that whoever told you not to use it is talking out of their @rse. It's the perfect stuff to use on pedal cranks because it will stop them seizing up so you're less likely to damage the cranks when you take the pedals off. INHO it's better than using a normal grease because these will dramatically reduce the friction between the surfaces which can result in you overtightening the the pedal (which will damage the crank).

Would you use it on a chainset axel?

balthazar

I have heard dire claims that it causes galvanic corrosion, and other claims that it prevents galvanic corrosion, resulting in equally dire warnings not to use it. My BS meter is bleeping loudly either way. I don't doubt that there may be some electrolytic activity that copper grease affects (I simply don't know), but I've never seen bike components which were corroded by it. At most, I suspect it is an academic concern.

I'll keep using copper grease as anti-sieze, simply from habit, and because I have a big tub of it. I have no confidence that it's any more use than ordinary grease.

Crank tapers are always greased, as they should be to establish an accurate torque value..! (ducks)

markos1963

When I get a new bike I always disassemble it and apply coppaslip to all the threads as usually the bike is very 'dry' after assembly. My singlespeed lives all year round outside under a cover and I don't have any problems with corrosion after doing this.

lae

^ galvanic corrosion and rust due to moisture aren't related.

It's true actually, but the timescale and the preventative oxidised coating of the aluminium stops any noticeable galvanic corrosion. It can potentially cause seizing over a very long time period (like ten years) but it's okay for normal use.

However on things that are likely to get the oxide scraped off (i.e. aluminium screws in a steel thread) then you should use lithium* grease instead. A few years ago I made the mistake of putting copper grease on the aluminium idle screws on my car's carburettor which had steel thread sleeves. They were seized within a week and I had to get the impact driver out on them.

Leaving aluminium/steel in bare contact will definitely lead to seizing though. If in doubt, use lithium grease, but copper grease is fine for almost anything you'll come across on a bicycle.

* lithium grease doesn't react because the lithium in it is already reacted. Copper grease contains unreacted particles of copper.

bill57

frinkmakesyouthink wrote:

lithium grease doesn't react because the lithium in it is already reacted. Copper grease contains unreacted particles of copper.

Which is just as well. Imagine this on your wet weather bike ............

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxhW7TtX ... re=related

lae

Good old Na + H2O = 1/2H2 + OH + Na

Remember that one? Me neither, I had to look it up :roll:

bill57

Edit: Forgot to balance equations, it's been too long.

2Li + 2H2O = 2LiOH + H2
2Na + 2H2O = 2NaOH + H2

It's the +H2 that gives the fun factor

Rockhopper

freehub wrote:

Mister W wrote:

I've used copper ease for years on cars, motorbikes and bicycles. I think that whoever told you not to use it is talking out of their @rse. It's the perfect stuff to use on pedal cranks because it will stop them seizing up so you're less likely to damage the cranks when you take the pedals off. INHO it's better than using a normal grease because these will dramatically reduce the friction between the surfaces which can result in you overtightening the the pedal (which will damage the crank).

Would you use it on a chainset axel?

What kind of chainset? Square taper types shouldn't be greased. (can,worms, open)!!

vitesse169

I've been using copper grease for over 30yrs on bikes/cars etc - esp between the disc pads and pistons on brake calipers... that will stop brake squeal.

bexley5200

i use axel car and truck grease never had a problem 15 years cycling,ps dont use lithium grease as it dryes to a powder

jonmack

Although I've only been building bikes for the last 10+ years I use copper slip all over the place, BB cups, seatposts, square taper/isis splines, pedal threads, etc. and never had any problems at all.

mrushton

Any decent bike shop always uses Copaslip. Lithium dries out or actually thins out if water gets to it.

giant_man

But what's better when installing cartridge BBs - Copperslip or lithium grease?

stigofthedump

Dont grease tapers.
Don't take my word for it, ask Mr Park Tools:

'Cranks are pressed tight onto the tapered square spindle. The square spidle is made with a slight upward sloping taper. The crank square fitting also has a slight taper (Figure 10). The crank bolt or nut acts as the pressing tool and forces the arm up the slope of the spindle. The bolt or nut must be tight enough to keep from loosening, but not so tight that the spindle splites and damages crank. If possible, use a torque wrench. See Torque Recommendations.


Figure 10. The square hole and square spindle end

Aluminum cranks typically do not require lubrication of this press fit. Aluminum by its nature is self-lubricating as it is covered with a thin layer of oxidation. Adequate torque is typically enough to keep arms from creaking.


a. Wipe both sides of spindle and inside crank mounting holes with a rag.

b. Grease under head and threads of both bolts or nuts.

c. Install right crank onto right side of spindle.

d. Thread crank bolt/nut to spindle.

e. Tighten crank bolt/nut to manufacturer's recommended torques (Figure 11).'

http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=103


Pip Pip

balthazar

stigofthedump wrote:

Dont grease tapers.
Don't take my word for it, ask Mr Park Tools:

'Cranks are pressed tight onto the tapered square spindle. The square spidle is made with a slight upward sloping taper. The crank square fitting also has a slight taper (Figure 10). The crank bolt or nut acts as the pressing tool and forces the arm up the slope of the spindle. The bolt or nut must be tight enough to keep from loosening, but not so tight that the spindle splites and damages crank. If possible, use a torque wrench. See Torque Recommendations.


Figure 10. The square hole and square spindle end

Aluminum cranks typically do not require lubrication of this press fit. Aluminum by its nature is self-lubricating as it is covered with a thin layer of oxidation. Adequate torque is typically enough to keep arms from creaking.


a. Wipe both sides of spindle and inside crank mounting holes with a rag.

b. Grease under head and threads of both bolts or nuts.

c. Install right crank onto right side of spindle.

d. Thread crank bolt/nut to spindle.

e. Tighten crank bolt/nut to manufacturer's recommended torques (Figure 11).'

http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=103


Pip Pip

Park Tool are wrong. Tapers should be lubricated to ensure a predictable press-fit. In your quoted comment they repeat the myth that overtightening a crank will split it (it won't), and the myth that grease is used to prevent creaking in the interface. It isn't. It permits the most reliable torque value.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/inst ... ranks.html

Cheshley

balthazar wrote:

stigofthedump wrote:

Dont grease tapers.
Don't take my word for it, ask Mr Park Tools:

'Cranks are pressed tight onto the tapered square spindle. The square spidle is made with a slight upward sloping taper. The crank square fitting also has a slight taper (Figure 10). The crank bolt or nut acts as the pressing tool and forces the arm up the slope of the spindle. The bolt or nut must be tight enough to keep from loosening, but not so tight that the spindle splites and damages crank. If possible, use a torque wrench. See Torque Recommendations.


Figure 10. The square hole and square spindle end

Aluminum cranks typically do not require lubrication of this press fit. Aluminum by its nature is self-lubricating as it is covered with a thin layer of oxidation. Adequate torque is typically enough to keep arms from creaking.


a. Wipe both sides of spindle and inside crank mounting holes with a rag.

b. Grease under head and threads of both bolts or nuts.

c. Install right crank onto right side of spindle.

d. Thread crank bolt/nut to spindle.

e. Tighten crank bolt/nut to manufacturer's recommended torques (Figure 11).'

http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=103


Pip Pip

Park Tool are wrong. Tapers should be lubricated to ensure a predictable press-fit. In your quoted comment they repeat the myth that overtightening a crank will split it (it won't), and the myth that grease is used to prevent creaking in the interface. It isn't. It permits the most reliable torque value.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/inst ... ranks.html

I knackered no end of crank arms on my old Marin MTB because I was told to grease the tapers, it allowed the cranks to be pushed too far onto the taper thus widening the square hole in the crank arm and allowing it to become loose. And yes, I was using a torque wrench.

balthazar

Cheshley wrote:

I knackered no end of crank arms on my old Marin MTB because I was told to grease the tapers, it allowed the cranks to be pushed too far onto the taper thus widening the square hole in the crank arm and allowing it to become loose. And yes, I was using a torque wrench.

Crank taper bore enlargement is caused by loose cranks, not those which are tightened too much. As noted, is isn't possible to damage a crank bore by overtightening – the bolt head will shear off first.

I have installed square taper cranks hundreds of times, always greased since I understood how the interface functions (though I was sworn by my first "mentor" mechanic to leave the taper ungreased, according to cycling lore), and none have been problematic to my knowledge. I can only imagine that your torque wrench was grossly miscalibrated, or you recall the events imperfectly.

dennisn

FWIW, and it's not much, but there is a website

www.bobistheoilguy.com

in which he talks about using copper grease on you Glocks. For those of you that carry.

stigofthedump

Jobst Brandt (on the Sheldon Brown website) states:
'The admonition not to grease the spindle finds life mainly in the bicycle trade. When I discussed the "dry assembly" rule with crank manufacturers, I discovered that they had warranty claims from customers who split cranks.'

He then goes on to say how the crank can work itself up the taper which is what splits the cranks.
You might also argue that it is the extra lubrication which causes the crank movement and breakage. As Park tools say, the aluminium oxide layer on the cranks provides the lubrication between crank and taper.

It is interesting that both crank manufacturers and Park tools both say no lubrication. Is this just because they could both be open to loss of reputation and litigation in case of failure. I cannot see how it would benefit them to tell you an imperfect assembly method.

And BTW I love JB and SB.