Hub gears, why not?

woodnut

I've noticed looking at US websites that hub gears seem to be much more popular on MTBs over there.
To me they seem ideally suited to the soggy conditions in the UK, but they don't seem to have caught on so much.
I wonder what puts people off, the range, the weight, or the limited choice of ready made bikes?
Also I'd quite like to build up a 29er with an Alfine in the future, anyone else done that or considered it?

supersonic

They are certainly getting better - more range and lighter, which were the criticisms.

RealMan

They put all the weight onto the back of the bike. Although a rohloff for example weighs about the same as shifters, chainrings, mechs, cassette, cables etc all together, all the weight is in one place, and this is very noticeable. Also they're expensive. And rohloffs only work with gripshift, which is rubbish.

woodnut

Rohloffs are expensive though technically a masterpiece, Alfines are pretty cheap though, and use a standard (though reversed) shifter. It's true about the weight but I've adjusted to it and quite like the "planted" feel of the back wheel. I suppose my point is they seem a good solution to mud, and we have much, much more mud than california say...yet the ideas caught on there but not here.

Eranu

They put all the weight onto the back of the bike. Although a rohloff for example weighs about the same as shifters, chainrings, mechs, cassette, cables etc all together, all the weight is in one place, and this is very noticeable. Also they're expensive. And rohloffs only work with gripshift, which is rubbish.

Once again the 18 year old prophet of mountain biking has spoken. How many rohloff equiped bikes have you riden? Gripshift is so rubbish that lots of world class XC racers use it, please buy a clue before you spout more inane boll0x.

wobbem

Wait for the new Alfine, with trigger shift.

jpstar

Handbags people...
RealMan How does it put all the weight on the back...? Most of it is already there if you haven't noticed your rear mech and cassette and free hub is there... Granted the chainrings are in the centre, but the difference is pretty negligible is it not?
Eranu I must say, I do prefer triggers any day. You forget, XC racers do also use triggers...

toasty

jpstar wrote:

Handbags people...
RealMan How does it put all the weight on the back...? Most of it is already there if you haven't noticed your rear mech and cassette and free hub is there... Granted the chainrings are in the centre, but the difference is pretty negligible is it not?

Not sure why everyone jumped on him there curiously, it is the one big downside of hub gearing imo. Rohloffs do have a decent range but weigh a lot still. Comparing to an XT-ish groupset (should really be XTR given the cost).

wikipedia wrote:

The hub weighs, depending on the version, between 1,700 g and 1,825 g.

300g - hope hub
264g - XT 11-32 cassette
253g - XT rear mech
135g - XT front mech
254g - XT shifters
100g - extra chain links
150g - extra chainrings

Still half a pound lighter, and the weight is split over the bike. I've not even taken into account the Rohloff shifter.

I have to admit, I'd absolutely love a Rohloff hub, I'd stick it on a commuting/touring/exploring bike though, rather than a trail bike that's getting hammered.

joshtp

i really do like the idea of a ll speed alfine... maybe one day.

supersonic

There is also efficiency - some hub gears, especially in some combos, are less efficient.

MrChuck

I'd say cost, perceived weight, and lack of availability are the things that have held it back so far, although as Supersonic notes these things are changing.

Regardless of whether Realman has ridden a Rohloff bike or not, the weight distribution thing is commonly cited as a drawback and with things like this it doesn't matter so much what the actual figures are- a lot of people think it's true so they don't seek out hub-geared bikes.

stumpyjon

With hub gears they are heavier and all the weight is in one very bad place, it's unsprung rotating weight, not great.

I'd guess the cost is the main reason people haven't gone for it. That and the fact a significant number of riders don't even understand standard gear systems which is what the bike manufacturers spec.

supersonic

The Alfine looks like a viable alternative to the Rohloff - and has a 390% gear spread. That said a 11-36 cassette with a single ring manages 327% and you get the reduction in weight of front mech, shifter, rings and some chain over a 2 or 3 ring set up.

paulrockliffe

Actually, it's only the hub body that is rotating weight, the rest doesn't rotate with the wheel.

bike-a-swan

how much extra mud do you think a 2 mech setup holds compared to an effective singlespeed? what sort of weight?

toasty

Weight of mud sitting on a mech and cassette, compared to weight sat on the huge hub? Not a vast amount of difference I doubt, few grams?

RealMan

Eranu wrote:

Once again the 18 year old prophet of mountain biking has spoken. How many rohloff equiped bikes have you riden? Gripshift is so rubbish that lots of world class XC racers use it, please buy a clue before you spout more inane boll0x.

2. One is my dad's, so I've ridden it lots, and had all his feedback on it. Maybe you'd like to insult him too? And it is rubbish. It jams up completely now and then, it can be very hard to use during wet weather when it gets slippery, it gets in the way of normal hand positions making grips uncomfortable, or you have to move your hand to change gear. If you're riding in cold conditions and have big gloves on, it can also be hard to change gear. Also rubbing your hand up and down on the grip surface of it can cause irritation.

So how many grip shift and rohloff equipped bikes have you riden?

jpstar wrote:

RealMan How does it put all the weight on the back...? Most of it is already there if you haven't noticed your rear mech and cassette and free hub is there... Granted the chainrings are in the centre, but the difference is pretty negligible is it not?

No, its very noticeable. Like someone else said, you do get used to it, and learn to ride slightly differently, but if you're used to a normal set up and go to a rohloff, you will notice it.

Toasty wrote:

Not sure why everyone jumped on him there curiously,

You will get used to it, I have..

supersonic

Not all grip shift are the same. As has been mentioned, many get on absolutely fine with it, and is only a very small part of the argument with hub gears.

RealMan

I just think its got a lot of disadvantages that normal trigger type shifters don't have, and no advantages over them (maybe weight?).

supersonic

Weight, and many can shift faster with them.

Is personal preference.

ESHER SHORE

I've spent 25+ years riding mountain bikes, and have rarely had any problems with derailleur based gearing systems, despite riding all year around in mud, snow and rain..

I have owned Sachs (pre-SRAM era) hub gears for mountain biking, and they actually worked fine in terms of function and durability, but were heavy which was noticeable on a full suspension bike's rear swingarm, and expensive too, compared to Shimano or even Sachs's own derailleur gearing systems of that time

bike-a-swan

rohloffs are, by all accounts (both with friends and t'internet) damn reliable. One guy loved his enough to use one on an Orange 5, which I always thought was pretty cool. as regarding the mud, I reckon I've picked up a fair bit at times...

AndrewBF

RealMan wrote:

Eranu wrote:

Once again the 18 year old prophet of mountain biking has spoken. How many rohloff equiped bikes have you riden? Gripshift is so rubbish that lots of world class XC racers use it, please buy a clue before you spout more inane boll0x.

2. One is my dad's, so I've ridden it lots, and had all his feedback on it. Maybe you'd like to insult him too? And it is rubbish. It jams up completely now and then, it can be very hard to use during wet weather when it gets slippery, it gets in the way of normal hand positions making grips uncomfortable, or you have to move your hand to change gear. If you're riding in cold conditions and have big gloves on, it can also be hard to change gear. Also rubbing your hand up and down on the grip surface of it can cause irritation.

So how many grip shift and rohloff equipped bikes have you riden?

Some fair and valid real world points there. I've had my Rohloff on a P7 since November, only 500 miles so far, but a fair few of them in the snow and winter mud. Over 30,000ft climbed (it does work the legs and gears living in the Peaks )

Mine has jammed up once, after going through very deep mud / water. Some crap got into the switching box. Simply unscrew this by hand and pop it back on. Problem solved.

I've ridden in very very wet weather with no issues on grip with gloves. However I did once venture out without gloves and found that the grip shift was very slippy once it got wet. So slippy that I couldn't change gear. So now I wear gloves

I got irritation on my thumb/finger area when I first rode - but that is just settling in to the new set up. Now I don't even notice it.

It is also heavy. You can't deny that. It *feels* like there is a brick tied to the rear axle although of course there is just a few hundred grams shifted around the bike. It makes a difference when you want to do a short hop or are on a tortuous up hill and feel the drag.

There is drag in the system too, but you soon overcome this by getting fitter And as for efficiencies the Rohloff is pretty efficient once installed, whereas a derailleur will only hold it's efficiency advantage if it is is constantly in tip top tuned condition. Mud, snow, wet, knocks all take a hit there.

I was trying different shifters, gears, etc. and getting them set up and tweaking them almost on every ride. Now I've just had the one jam - as mentioned above, and easy to resolve if it happens again.

For shifting - I've no problem at all. It takes a bit of getting used to as ideally you shift at the top of a stroke when there is minimum torque. You can soon get into this way of riding without much bother. It is also brilliant for shifting into the right gear when you have misread that uphill section, and for shifting down when stopped suddenly or at lights on the road.

Would I go back to derailleur? No, not at all. Unless perhaps I was seriously racing and needed the lightness and could also guarantee the reliability of switching gears.

I'm sure that if Rohloffs were available for, say, £200 they would be selling like hotcakes - so really this is an issue about price. And if the cost came right down it would be one of reliability / serviceability over lightness.

RealMan

AndrewBF wrote:

only 500 miles so far.........

.......There is drag in the system too

It will get better as it beds in more. One of the only things in the MTB world that gets better with age I reckon.

fletch8928

my lbs owners son has a alfine with middleburn up front. He loves the thing and I am waiting for the 11 speed one to come out and then I shall have a big think.

For me its all a chore going up hill and as said before all a bit of weight does is make you fitter/stronger. (time to take the brick out of my camelbak).

Another plus point is i have twice had a bit of bracken/heather grab my rear mech and drag it through the wheel. Unlucky I know, but hub gears do leave less bits exposed.

billysan

Anyone that sits on a forum and repeats the standard "hub gear faults" has probably never riden one.

Those who have either been in my company out on a ride, or have had a go are generally in awe of it. Even more so if we've just been for a ride in the winter gloop.

And as for the Rohloffs twist shifter, it is absolutely perfect. RFP is better on conventional gears, but the twist shifter allows you to exploit the Rohloff to its full potential.

I wont go on any longer here. for more of my thoughts have a search through my old posts. Suffice to say virtually every hub gear flaw is in reality unfounded.

woodnut

fletch8928 wrote:

Another plus point is i have twice had a bit of bracken/heather grab my rear mech and drag it through the wheel. Unlucky I know, but hub gears do leave less bits exposed.

That happened to me aswell, really hurt when I came off as a result. That was partly why I bought a bike with an Alfine...that and the fact they need less maintenance. I think they are a great thing, I reckon the new 11 speed one (if it's as good as it sounds) might help make them more of a popular choice.

Radioactiveman

What I have spent on new mechs and wheel rebuilds would have paid for half a rohloff in the last 2 years,factor that in with new chains, a new cassette and chainrings I could easily justify buying one when I have a suitable frame.

I think if I was taking the plunge I would want to go belt drive at the same time. Unfortunately the frames I like dont have split dropouts

supersonic

billysan wrote:

Anyone that sits on a forum and repeats the standard "hub gear faults" has probably never riden one.

Those who have either been in my company out on a ride, or have had a go are generally in awe of it. Even more so if we've just been for a ride in the winter gloop.

And as for the Rohloffs twist shifter, it is absolutely perfect. RFP is better on conventional gears, but the twist shifter allows you to exploit the Rohloff to its full potential.

I wont go on any longer here. for more of my thoughts have a search through my old posts. Suffice to say virtually every hub gear flaw is in reality unfounded.

Flaw or personal preference? Many have quoted some reasonable facts, and opinions.

billysan

Yes they have, And Im not disputing that. I had the same thoughts when I bought mine. But having used it for a reasonable length of time I have since realised that non of my original scepticisms were really founded.

For every person singing a rohloffs praises, there are 10 putting them down. In reality 9 of those 10 have never seen one let alone riden one.

Just an observation!

bomberesque

the main reason is that Alfines and Rollhoff (not to forget SRAM) have not really been marketed directly at mountainbikers yet. OK, a few niche companies (Endorfin for example) develop MTBs with hub gears but it's not reached the mainstream yet. The Alfine 8, for example, has always sat in Shimano's "comfort" line, marketed to commuters and day tourists (not sure if that changed for '10 or '11). It's been enthusiasts like some of you and a few niche companies that have adopted this kit and found it useful for moutainbiking in foul conditions. God bless the lot of you!

I think that gearboxes have a future but the weight issue needs continued work, transmission losses may always be with us and I think they should be BB or frame mounted.

As for shifting weight balance someone pointed out to me that we used the same arguments against front suspension many moons ago but the technology won out and now suspension forks are all but ubiquitous.