Did/does anyone ride lower than MOSER?

frenchfighter

Every time I watch a clip of Moser racing, I notice how extremely low he is on the bike; so aero, almost to the point of it being uncomfortable.

I was wondering if anyone knows anything interesting about this and if there were/are any other riders who get as low?

See here for a good example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2Z61UVMWio

FransJacques

wow, does he have a track background? that's a funny position by today's standard. my cursory analysis of what allows him to do so is that he's short and short - that is he's short from saddle to bars and short in his saddle height.

check out his rear knee angle and 6 o'clock - it's way smaller than what a modern day bike fit would give a racer. certainly lower than the serotta system would give you.

secondly, he's really short lenthwise - look at the the overalp of his knees and elbows - his forarm are angled waaay out. and his back is way hunched as well.

finally, there's a funny visual effect with is head - he holds it very very low so that gives the impression that his hips are really high.

love that old stuff, really pricely. everyone should have a course in "70s and 80s great classics: 101"

iain_j

Yep, he had the hour record before Graeme Obree.

frenchfighter

Good analysis FJ. I agree that the way he holds his head exentuates it. I guess the clips you see are mostly going to be when he is really going for it so will be as aero as possible. If he rides similar to that the whole time that is pretty unreal.

The Prodigy

He makes my back ache just watching him.

Art Vandelay

Personally, I love Moser's style. He has amazing pedalling fluidity and his positioning on the bike looks great. He was a real pioneer of aerodynamics both in positioning and technology.
A great all rounder - terrific sprinter but famous for being able to sustain power.

ps. Not exactly small either at 180cm.

Le Commentateur

The video is maybe a bit misleading, in that he's obviously on some kind of lone break towards the end of a gruelling race – maybe the pursuers are only a handful of seconds behind and he needed all the aero advantage he could get.

frenchfighter

Le Commentateur wrote:

The video is maybe a bit misleading, in that he's obviously on some kind of lone break towards the end of a gruelling race – maybe the pursuers are only a handful of seconds behind and he needed all the aero advantage he could get.

Sure, that was my earlier point. For ref, he won this Roubaix by 1.40

frenchfighter

Art Vandelay, that is a great photo.

I agree his power is unreal. When he is mentioned, I aways think of that bit in 'A Sunday in Hell', where two top riders (their names escape me right now, but think one was Poulidor), are riding on either side of the path and he comes through the middle, as smooth as you like, and leaves them for dead.

Edit: @ 9mins:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWTj6H2KKr4

phil s

If you ever see Mikhail Ignatiev, his low style looks similar. He can ride for ages very low in the drops.

Splottboy

Theres a time traillist up here who lost 2-3 fingers when he got his hand trapped in the front wheel.
His bars were only about 1/2 inch above his tyre. OOUUCHH!

Bhima

One one frame I have, which is the wrong size, my handlebar drops go waaaaaaaaaay below the height of the front wheel, yet I find it comfy. "3 hours in the same position"-style comfy. Not seen anyone get near the front wheel height, not even in TTs.

RichN95.

Splottboy wrote:

Theres a time traillist up here who lost 2-3 fingers when he got his hand trapped in the front wheel.
His bars were only about 1/2 inch above his tyre. OOUUCHH!

Everyone in North Wales has six fingers to start with though

Team Banana Spokesman

bhima, it's uci-illegal. yet another rule your bike breaks.

FJS

Moser did sit particularly low, but it's also partly different frame geometry and what used to be a standard low position 'back in the day'

dennisn

frenchfighter wrote:

Every time I watch a clip of Moser racing, I notice how extremely low he is on the bike; so aero, almost to the point of it being uncomfortable.

I guess you might also have to say that maybe it WAS uncomfortable instead of "almost".

blorg

A bit different but Cadel Evans has an extremely low TT position at the front.

frenchfighter

Some good photos to iluustrate the topic there guys.

FransJacques

holy crap - they punched a hole in the head tube! that takes some cajones. since it was the DL from last year, do the bars meet the 1:3 ratio rule?

Big knee to elbow overlap as well, which is fine for most road applications. Whem you see some Tri guys you see their arms further forward so they can get the elbows together. Obree's position had his elbows just outside his knees as well.

Can't believe these guys' knees don't hit their chest like I do sometimes when I'm down and goin for it...

frenchfighter

I guess physiology is one part of why pros are pros.

Splottboy

RICH 95: Yeah agree, being a Splottboy!

This guy had no common sense but he was a Genius academically, no kidding!
Was told he was now involved with some sort of arms designing at a Govt centre.

Nuclear or similar. Probably asking for "One hundred million dollars!" as we speak.

shockedsoshocked

frenchfighter wrote:

I guess physiology is one part of why pros are pros.

More just flexibility when it comes to positions. There's an excellent pic of Fabu touching the palm of his hands against the floor whilst stood up at the start of a tour stage, that level of flexibility is awesome.

greasedscotsman

I always thought Boardman and Wiggins both had good positions, particulaly low at the front. Maybe not quite like Moser as they're on TT bikes with aero bars...

iainf72

Any of the guys who've come through the Russian track system seem to have low positions. And are rock solid

Ignatiev on the attack is always a sight

graeme_s-2

greasedscotsman wrote:

I always thought Boardman and Wiggins both had good positions, particulaly low at the front. Maybe not quite like Moser as they're on TT bikes with aero bars...

There was an article in the Triathlon Plus preview (before issue 1 came out) with Chris Boardman where he described the optimum TT position and there was a diagram illustrating it. Wiggins' TT position (and Boardman's in your pic above) is exactly as Boardman described it in the article.

One thing that I found interesting was elbow position. He said ideally they should be exactly hip width apart, any narrower and it can cause a buffeting effect. Makes sense when you think about it, but it seems intuitive that you would want them as tightly together as you could manage.

I always think Cav looks very low and aero when he's sprinting. I'm sure he saves a few watts over some of the larger/less aero sprinters that way.