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Garmin Edge Devices & TOPO maps - law stuff

MrVanillaMrVanilla Posts: 60
edited December 2009 in MTB buying advice
It seems to me that a lot of people on the mountain biking forum are getting stuffed by Garmin with regards the limited range of maps available for the Edge series of devices i.e the TOPO maps which are about as useful as a chocolate oven glove.

I'll quote some sales of good act fluff;
Sale of Goods Act, Faulty Goods.
Relevant or Related Legislation:

Sale of Goods Act 1979. Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982. Sale and Supply of Goods Act 1994. The Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002.
Key Facts:

• Wherever goods are bought they must "conform to contract". This means they must be as described, fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality (i.e. not inherently faulty at the time of sale).

• Goods are of satisfactory quality if they reach the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking into account the price and any description.

• Aspects of quality include fitness for purpose, freedom from minor defects, appearance and finish, durability and safety.

• It is the seller, not the manufacturer, who is responsible if goods do not conform to contract.

• If goods do not conform to contract at the time of sale, purchasers can request their money back "within a reasonable time". (This is not defined and will depend on circumstances)

• For up to six years after purchase (five years from discovery in Scotland) purchasers can demand damages (which a court would equate to the cost of a repair or replacement).

• A purchaser who is a consumer, i.e. is not buying in the course of a business, can alternatively request a repair or replacement.

• If repair and replacement are not possible or too costly, then the consumer can seek a partial refund, if they have had some benefit from the good, or a full refund if the fault/s have meant they have enjoyed no benefit

• In general, the onus is on all purchasers to prove the goods did not conform to contract (e.g. was inherently faulty) and should have reasonably lasted until this point in time (i.e. perishable goods do not last for six years).

• If a consumer chooses to request a repair or replacement, then for the first six months after purchase it will be for the retailer to prove the goods did conform to contract (e.g. were not inherently faulty)

• After six months and until the end of the six years, it is for the consumer to prove the lack of conformity.

In the case of the Garmin products that DON'T support the explorer software (i.e Garmin Edge 605/705) you are not getting the product that is advertised i.e (and i quote from Garmins site)
Lose yourself in the ride without losing your way. Edge 705 comes with a built-in basemap, plus it has a microSD™ card slot for adding map detail and storing workouts, courses and saved rides. Just plug in detailed MapSource® City Navigator® street maps on a preloaded data card and get turn-by-turn directions on a sunlight-readable, color display as you pedal. Add optional topo mapping for your off-road adventures. Edge snaps easily into the included bike mount to guide you to your destination.

In the UK, additional TOPO mapping is NOT available therefore you are stuck with a device that works acceptably on the road but is zero use on trails or "off road".

So how does all this fit in with you when you have received the product (whether you have paid for it yourself or someone else has bought it for you)

Let's look at the sales of goods act:
Aspects of quality include fitness for purpose, freedom from minor defects, appearance and finish, durability and safety.

Firstly, the following two points are key.

An Inherent Fault
A fault present at the time of purchase. Examples are:
an error in design so that a product is manufactured incorrectly
An error in manufacturing where a faulty component was inserted.
The "fault" may not become apparent immediately but it was there at the time of sale and so the product was not of satisfactory standard.

Good news for all you people who have registered your maps, and you've got 6 years to do it. This is what you need to do.
You have the right to get a faulty item replaced or repaired, if you're happy with this (or if it's too late to reject it). You can ask the retailer to do either, but they can normally choose to do whatever would be cheapest.

Under the Sale of Goods Act, the retailer must either repair or replace the goods 'within a reasonable time but without causing significant inconvenience'. If the seller doesn't do this, you are entitled to claim either:

* reduction on the purchase price, or
* your money back, minus an amount for the usage you've had of the goods (called 'recision').

If the retailer refuses to repair the goods, you may have the right to arrange for someone else to repair it, and then claim compensation from the retailer for the cost of doing this.

You have six years to make a claim for faulty goods in England, Wales and Northern Ireland; in Scotland you have five years.

So to sum up, if you've bought a Garmin Edge, are attempting to use it off road and are finding Garmins map providing skills somewhat lacking i would urge you to take it up with your retailer. Even if you have registered the map you can still do this and possibly expect a recision value on your purchase (for the map price). I suspect it's highly unlikely however and when court papers start dropping on companies doorsteps, from previous experience I would be expecting a full refund.

Hope this helps anyone stuck in this situation.

Posts

  • strodeystrodey Posts: 481
    :cry::lol:
    Carbon is a mans best freind
  • HortonHorton Posts: 327
    In the UK, additional TOPO mapping is NOT available therefore you are stuck with a device that works acceptably on the road but is zero use on trails or "off road".



    Not quite sure where you're going with this, but clearly, Garmin do sell Topo maps as an optional add in. Granted they're not the best in the world but they are Topo maps and as such I'm not sure that you'd have much luck in court if it really came to it. Just because Garmin choose not to make their products compatible with other mainstream products does not make them in breach of the Goods and Sales Act.

    To top this, it does not take a genius to trawl the murkier side of the web to find free topos that work fine although I have no idea on the legality of these.[/url]
  • Horton wrote:
    In the UK, additional TOPO mapping is NOT available therefore you are stuck with a device that works acceptably on the road but is zero use on trails or "off road".



    Not quite sure where you're going with this, but clearly, Garmin do sell Topo maps as an optional add in. Granted they're not the best in the world but they are Topo maps and as such I'm not sure that you'd have much luck in court if it really came to it. Just because Garmin choose not to make their products compatible with other mainstream products does not make them in breach of the Goods and Sales Act.

    To top this, it does not take a genius to trawl the murkier side of the web to find free topos that work fine although I have no idea on the legality of these.[/url]

    For the UK they don't.
    Add optional topo mapping for your off-road adventures

    Great if you live in the states and get access to their 24k topo maps, not so great in the UK where the "optional" TOPO maps don't cover off road trails... Free maps are irrelevant.... if Garmin advertised them, they'd have a point, but they don't so they haven't. If that makes sense ;)

    I'm not saying Garmin need to make their product compatible with other products, i'm saying that the base map provided by Garmin, and their "optional" TOPO maps (i.e City Navigator) are not "fit for purpose" for mountain bikers.
  • MarkLGMarkLG Posts: 189
    The real problem is buyers not researching properly before spending their money, and buying on line to save a few quid, instead of going to speak to a knowledgeable retailer.

    If you want a GPS for your MTB that allows you to load in full OS detail maps showing rights of way, etc then get a Dakota 20. If you want a GPS for your road bike that records heart rate, cadence, lap times, etc then get an Edge.
  • what if you want a GPS for your MTB that loads in full OS maps showing rights of way and to record heart rate, cadence, lap times etc?
  • vikingboy wrote:
    what if you want a GPS for your MTB that loads in full OS maps showing rights of way and to record heart rate, cadence, lap times etc?

    The Dakota 20 will do that for you. The issue raised here is to do with the Edge models, specifically marketed as "Advanced cycling computers" with mapping.
  • gongagonga Posts: 225
    is there a technical reason why garmin have not put better mapping(os) on the edge?
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