Armstrong conundrum

Langman
Langman Posts: 178
edited December 2009 in Pro race
All the Astana stuff going on at the moment got me thinking and I'd like to know others views on this.

Here is the question - and its hypothetical - so no need for hysterics

If Armstrong was a doper for his 7 tour wiins, would you like him to be caught now, with all the negative press and potential loss of TV deals/coverage etc etc? Or would you be happy for him to get away with it to keep cycling on the up and up.


For me its a tricky one...... :?
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Comments

  • Slapshot
    Slapshot Posts: 211
    the conundrum is simpler than that, do you want to live a lie or do you want to be honest.

    Catch him, ban him and stop the lies because as long as HE controls the purse string of the sport we'll never have honesty
  • top_bhoy
    top_bhoy Posts: 1,424
    edited December 2009
    It would hurt the sport and the Livestrong campaign big time. Thats no reason for not exposing him as a drug cheat - if the evidence shows he is guilty. Long term, cycing will recover and I think better for it but I'm not so sure Livestrong would if its figurehead was so badly tarnished. Hopefully though, the resources and finances currently being put into the Livestrong campaign will migrate into similar charities.
  • Doobz
    Doobz Posts: 2,800
    One to One with Johan

    http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid28343239001?bctid=57917598001

    From 2.08 says it all for me - made me chuckle Maybe he wanted to say "A good doping program"
    cartoon.jpg
  • dave_1
    dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    ...who did LA cheat in the races? You really think the others didn't use? Do we really want that laundry washed in public? I'd prefer he wasn't caught even though have not doubt he used... but simply..on a cost benefit anaylsis it isn't worth it....he'll be retired in 12 months from road racing
  • afx237vi
    afx237vi Posts: 12,630
    Dave_1 wrote:
    ...who did LA cheat in the races? You really think the others didn't use? Do we really want that laundry washed in public? I'd prefer he wasn't caught even though have not doubt he used... but simply..on a cost benefit anaylsis it isn't worth it....he'll be retired in 12 months from road racing

    So you think Wiggins is dirty, eh? Interesting.
  • dave_1
    dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    afx237vi wrote:
    Dave_1 wrote:
    ...who did LA cheat in the races? You really think the others didn't use? Do we really want that laundry washed in public? I'd prefer he wasn't caught even though have not doubt he used... but simply..on a cost benefit anaylsis it isn't worth it....he'll be retired in 12 months from road racing

    So you think Wiggins is dirty, eh? Interesting.

    clue ... 1999-2005
  • afx237vi
    afx237vi Posts: 12,630
    Dave_1 wrote:
    afx237vi wrote:
    Dave_1 wrote:
    ...who did LA cheat in the races? You really think the others didn't use? Do we really want that laundry washed in public? I'd prefer he wasn't caught even though have not doubt he used... but simply..on a cost benefit anaylsis it isn't worth it....he'll be retired in 12 months from road racing

    So you think Wiggins is dirty, eh? Interesting.

    clue ... 1999-2005

    Sorry, my psychic abilities appear to be on the wane. Must get that checked.

    Still, if he'd been caught pre-2009, maybe Wiggins would have been able to get that podium place after all. It's a shame you don't think that would have been worthwhile, on a cost-benefit basis.
  • dave_1
    dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    afx237vi wrote:
    Dave_1 wrote:
    afx237vi wrote:
    Dave_1 wrote:
    ...who did LA cheat in the races? You really think the others didn't use? Do we really want that laundry washed in public? I'd prefer he wasn't caught even though have not doubt he used... but simply..on a cost benefit anaylsis it isn't worth it....he'll be retired in 12 months from road racing

    So you think Wiggins is dirty, eh? Interesting.

    clue ... 1999-2005

    Sorry, my psychic abilities appear to be on the wane. Must get that checked.

    Still, if he'd been caught pre-2009, maybe Wiggins would have been able to get that podium place after all. It's a shame you don't think that would have been worthwhile, on a cost-benefit basis.

    pretty much everyone was at it in the 1990s-06...why single out LA? I don't think picking out one rider from that era when hundreds were at it is fair.....you do?? sanction them all...hundreds likely...
  • afx237vi
    afx237vi Posts: 12,630
    Dave_1 wrote:
    pretty much everyone was at it in the 1990s-06...why single out LA? I don't think picking out one rider from that era when hundreds were at it is fair.....you do?? sanction them all...hundreds likely...

    What, so now you're saying no-one should be sanctioned? In that case, why bother having anti-doping rules at all?
  • top_bhoy
    top_bhoy Posts: 1,424
    Dave_1 wrote:
    ...who did LA cheat in the races? You really think the others didn't use? Do we really want that laundry washed in public? I'd prefer he wasn't caught even though have not doubt he used... but simply..on a cost benefit anaylsis it isn't worth it....he'll be retired in 12 months from road racing

    Dave_1...the dopers friend!!!! That attitude is why the sport lurches from crisis to crisis and why it deserves the reputation it has.
  • dave_1
    dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    afx237vi wrote:
    Dave_1 wrote:
    pretty much everyone was at it in the 1990s-06...why single out LA? I don't think picking out one rider from that era when hundreds were at it is fair.....you do?? sanction them all...hundreds likely...

    What, so now you're saying no-one should be sanctioned? In that case, why bother having anti-doping rules at all?

    yes, draw a line in the sand...no need to go digging up the bones of the past is best...so many , how far back do we go? mercx?
  • dave_1
    dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    Top_Bhoy wrote:
    Dave_1 wrote:
    ...who did LA cheat in the races? You really think the others didn't use? Do we really want that laundry washed in public? I'd prefer he wasn't caught even though have not doubt he used... but simply..on a cost benefit anaylsis it isn't worth it....he'll be retired in 12 months from road racing

    Dave_1...the dopers friend!!!! That attitude is why the sport lurches from crisis to crisis and why it deserves the reputation it has.

    yeah, easy to see you don't depend on future team sponsorhip for your job. Aspiring amatuer international are we? Doubt it somehow. People like you running the sport would see the lot of them out of a job
  • afx237vi
    afx237vi Posts: 12,630
    Dave_1 wrote:
    afx237vi wrote:
    Dave_1 wrote:
    pretty much everyone was at it in the 1990s-06...why single out LA? I don't think picking out one rider from that era when hundreds were at it is fair.....you do?? sanction them all...hundreds likely...

    What, so now you're saying no-one should be sanctioned? In that case, why bother having anti-doping rules at all?

    yes, draw a line in the sand...no need to go digging up the bones of the past is best...so many , how far back do we go? mercx?

    What do you mean "how far back do we go"? We're not going anywhere if the riders in question are still active! By your logic, someone could test positive next year and you'd go "ah well, let's not upset the applecart, we'll draw a line in the sand, eh?"
  • afx237vi
    afx237vi Posts: 12,630
    Dave_1 wrote:
    Top_Bhoy wrote:
    Dave_1 wrote:
    ...who did LA cheat in the races? You really think the others didn't use? Do we really want that laundry washed in public? I'd prefer he wasn't caught even though have not doubt he used... but simply..on a cost benefit anaylsis it isn't worth it....he'll be retired in 12 months from road racing

    Dave_1...the dopers friend!!!! That attitude is why the sport lurches from crisis to crisis and why it deserves the reputation it has.

    yeah, easy to see you don't depend on future team sponsorhip for your job. Aspiring amatuer international are we? Doubt it somehow. People like you running the sport would see the lot of them out of a job

    What if I'm a clean amateur who's competing for a contract against other doped up amateurs, a la Ricco? Take drugs or don't be a cyclist... but as long as the sponsors are happy, that's apparently okay.
  • dave_1
    dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    afx237vi wrote:
    Dave_1 wrote:
    Top_Bhoy wrote:
    Dave_1 wrote:
    ...who did LA cheat in the races? You really think the others didn't use? Do we really want that laundry washed in public? I'd prefer he wasn't caught even though have not doubt he used... but simply..on a cost benefit anaylsis it isn't worth it....he'll be retired in 12 months from road racing

    Dave_1...the dopers friend!!!! That attitude is why the sport lurches from crisis to crisis and why it deserves the reputation it has.

    yeah, easy to see you don't depend on future team sponsorhip for your job. Aspiring amatuer international are we? Doubt it somehow. People like you running the sport would see the lot of them out of a job

    What if I'm a clean amateur who's competing for a contract against other doped up amateurs, a la Ricco? Take drugs or don't be a cyclist... but as long as the sponsors are happy, that's apparently okay.

    but isn't David Millar right? The sport is a lot cleaner now. The bio passport and increased out of competition testing, increased scrutiny has taken down big names in 2008-09. Do clean amatuers get faced with doping or can they now do it clean? I think the glass is half full at least...definitely improving. You guys are praying for new doping scandal and esp re one rider
  • top_bhoy
    top_bhoy Posts: 1,424
    Dave_1 wrote:
    Top_Bhoy wrote:
    Dave_1 wrote:
    ...who did LA cheat in the races? You really think the others didn't use? Do we really want that laundry washed in public? I'd prefer he wasn't caught even though have not doubt he used... but simply..on a cost benefit anaylsis it isn't worth it....he'll be retired in 12 months from road racing

    Dave_1...the dopers friend!!!! That attitude is why the sport lurches from crisis to crisis and why it deserves the reputation it has.

    yeah, easy to see you don't depend on future team sponsorhip for your job. Aspiring amatuer international are we? Doubt it somehow. People like you running the sport would see the lot of them out of a job
    .....I now picture you standing at a street corner peddling dope to the unemployed kids, telling them that they'll get a job if they take it because effectivey that is what you have just said.

    Many jobs outside of sport depend on keeping tightly to the rules and regulations - I and many others don't make cyclists a special case, especially where through the use of drugs, their health can be affected.
  • dave_1
    dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    Top_Bhoy wrote:
    Dave_1 wrote:
    Top_Bhoy wrote:
    Dave_1 wrote:
    ...who did LA cheat in the races? You really think the others didn't use? Do we really want that laundry washed in public? I'd prefer he wasn't caught even though have not doubt he used... but simply..on a cost benefit anaylsis it isn't worth it....he'll be retired in 12 months from road racing

    Dave_1...the dopers friend!!!! That attitude is why the sport lurches from crisis to crisis and why it deserves the reputation it has.

    yeah, easy to see you don't depend on future team sponsorhip for your job. Aspiring amatuer international are we? Doubt it somehow. People like you running the sport would see the lot of them out of a job
    .....I now picture you standing at a street corner peddling dope to the unemployed kids, telling them that they'll get a job if they take it because effectivey that is what you have just said.

    Many jobs outside of sport depend on keeping tightly to the rules and regulations - I and many others don't make cyclists a special case, especially where through the use of drugs, their health can be affected.

    I picture you as someone who would be unaffected by mass sponsorship pull outs that the doping scandals you wish for come to be....I'd rather the sport cleaned up behind the scenes to some extent...you don't agree,... you think big sponsor pull outs is the medicine. To repeat again, you're not considering the view of the young clean amatuer hoping for a first pro contract...selfish viewpoint you hold really...a fan of cycling, but an outsider...unable to see how the riders might feel
  • afx237vi
    afx237vi Posts: 12,630
    Dave_1 wrote:
    afx237vi wrote:
    What if I'm a clean amateur who's competing for a contract against other doped up amateurs, a la Ricco? Take drugs or don't be a cyclist... but as long as the sponsors are happy, that's apparently okay.

    but isn't David Millar right? The sport is a lot cleaner now. The bio passport and increased out of competition testing, increased scrutiny has taken down big names in 2008-09. Do clean amatuers get faced with doping or can they now do it clean? I think the glass is half full at least...definitely improving. You guys are praying for new doping scandal and esp re one rider

    Well if cycling is getting cleaner, then how does that square with you saying lines should be drawn and certain things shouldn't be pursued because they make the sport look bad? Why not one final purge to get rid of the dodgy DSes and shady doctors who still pollute the peloton?

    You can't claim the sport is getting cleaner when someone like Valverde just won the Vuelta and everyone pretends that was a-okay.

    As for the amateurs, who knows? Wasn't that Serbian coach caught organising blood transfusions for 15 year old girls last year? I think it's naive to think that Ricco was a one-off.
  • top_bhoy
    top_bhoy Posts: 1,424
    Dave_1 wrote:
    but isn't David Millar right? The sport is a lot cleaner now. The bio passport and increased out of competition testing, increased scrutiny has taken down big names in 2008-09. Do clean amatuers get faced with doping or can they now do it clean? I think the glass is half full at least...definitely improving. You guys are praying for new doping scandal and esp re one rider
    I and many others couldn't care less about a certain rider so you need to identify 'you guys' a little bit better. Its not about individuals, I want every damned one involved in the sport who encourages, takes or administers drugs to have the book thrown at them. Can't take Millar seriously - his only remorse is getting caught otherwise he'd still be happy to be sticking syringes into his veins.
  • dave_1
    dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    afx237vi wrote:
    Dave_1 wrote:
    afx237vi wrote:
    What if I'm a clean amateur who's competing for a contract against other doped up amateurs, a la Ricco? Take drugs or don't be a cyclist... but as long as the sponsors are happy, that's apparently okay.

    but isn't David Millar right? The sport is a lot cleaner now. The bio passport and increased out of competition testing, increased scrutiny has taken down big names in 2008-09. Do clean amatuers get faced with doping or can they now do it clean? I think the glass is half full at least...definitely improving. You guys are praying for new doping scandal and esp re one rider

    Well if cycling is getting cleaner, then how does that square with you saying lines should be drawn and certain things shouldn't be pursued because they make the sport look bad? Why not one final purge to get rid of the dodgy DSes and shady doctors who still pollute the peloton?

    You can't claim the sport is getting cleaner when someone like Valverde just won the Vuelta and everyone pretends that was a-okay.

    As for the amateurs, who knows? Wasn't that Serbian coach caught organising blood transfusions for 15 year old girls last year? I think it's naive to think that Ricco was a one-off.

    I haven't seen the Serbian story in the news much...am willing to rely on what the likes of David Millar say...it's getting a lot cleaner. I think Valverde might be clean now. Hisprogress as a grand tour rider halted in 2005..-07... that 03 Vuelta was really sus. Caisse depargne pull out would be just great eh? :roll:
  • top_bhoy
    top_bhoy Posts: 1,424
    edited December 2009
    Dave_1 wrote:
    I picture you as someone who would be unaffected by mass sponsorship pull outs that the doping scandals you wish for come to be....I'd rather the sport cleaned up behind the scenes to some extent...you don't agree,... you think big sponsor pull outs is the medicine. To repeat again, you're not considering the view of the young clean amatuer hoping for a first pro contract...selfish viewpoint you hold really...a fan of cycling, but an outsider...unable to see how the riders might feel

    You think I'd be unaffected by mass sponsorship deal pull-outs but you are wrong. I have just been made unemployed because the customer (akin to a sponsor) pulled the plug so such occurrrences happen in all walks of life. However I do think the sport would have a far better chance with greater coverage and finance if it got rid of the drug culture, bacame less parochial and went chasing aggresively the multi-national corporations across all parts of the globe.

    The TdF is a great spectacle with obvious global appeal, Paris-Roubaix, Word Championships, etc.... Why are there few truly multi-national corporations with teams in the pro peleton whereas in almost any other high participation sport, multi-national corporation sponsorship is a normal occurrence? I'm sure for many, continual drug stories and scandals scare them off.

    Without taking action, the young clean rider will get tossed aside with no future if his drug filled counterpart performs better so I think its a bit off to suggest that I am being selfish when in fact I am taking an overall position in terms of wanting to promote the sport better and protect the health of young riders.
  • afx237vi
    afx237vi Posts: 12,630
    Dave_1 wrote:
    afx237vi wrote:
    Well if cycling is getting cleaner, then how does that square with you saying lines should be drawn and certain things shouldn't be pursued because they make the sport look bad? Why not one final purge to get rid of the dodgy DSes and shady doctors who still pollute the peloton?

    You can't claim the sport is getting cleaner when someone like Valverde just won the Vuelta and everyone pretends that was a-okay.

    As for the amateurs, who knows? Wasn't that Serbian coach caught organising blood transfusions for 15 year old girls last year? I think it's naive to think that Ricco was a one-off.

    I haven't seen the Serbian story in the news much...am willing to rely on what the likes of David Millar say...it's getting a lot cleaner. I think Valverde might be clean now. Hisprogress as a grand tour rider halted in 2005..-07... that 03 Vuelta was really sus. Caisse depargne pull out would be just great eh? :roll:

    The Serbian coach investigation is still ongoing and all tied up with the Di Luca story:

    http://www.podiumcafe.com/2009/12/1/118 ... d-sporting

    But the fact that he is arrested, linked with dozens of amateur and pro cyclists, and it barely registers on the news sites shows what a chronic state the state the sport is in.

    So what if Valverde is clean now? The fact that he has been able to ride at all for the past 18 months absolutely stinks. WRT to CdE, do we really need sponsors who continue to employ and protect dopers? We need teams like that like we a need a hole in the head. More Garmins, fewer CdEs please.
  • dave_1
    dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    Top_Bhoy wrote:
    Dave_1 wrote:
    I picture you as someone who would be unaffected by mass sponsorship pull outs that the doping scandals you wish for come to be....I'd rather the sport cleaned up behind the scenes to some extent...you don't agree,... you think big sponsor pull outs is the medicine. To repeat again, you're not considering the view of the young clean amatuer hoping for a first pro contract...selfish viewpoint you hold really...a fan of cycling, but an outsider...unable to see how the riders might feel

    You think I'd be unaffected by mass sponsorship deal pull-outs but you are wrong. However I do think the sport would have a far better chance with greater coverage and finance if it got rid of the drug culture and went chasing aggresively the multi-national corporations across all parts of the globe. The TdF is a great spectacle with obvious global appeal, Paris-Roubaix, Word Championships, etc.... Why are there few truly multi-national corporations with teams in the pro peloton whereas in almost any other high participation sport, multi-national corporation sponsorship is a normal occurrence? I'm sure for many, continual drug stories and scandals scare them off.

    The young clean rider will get tossed aside with no future if his drug filled counterpart performs better so I think its a bit off to suggest that I am being selfish when in fact I am taking an overall position in terms of wanting to promote the sport better and protect the health of young riders.

    I don't think cycling is in the top 3 or 5 sports in the world...I guess this has an impact on the types of sponsors who come in...football, tennis, motor sport...golf, others??? i met Italians and French who know very little about the TDF or Giro it's not that well known even in the heartlands of cycling..anyway, I still think it is getting a lot cleaner...
  • top_bhoy
    top_bhoy Posts: 1,424
    I don't think cycling is in the top 3 or 5 either. However I look at cricket, rugby union, etc and they all appear to have multinational financial institutions and brewing companies involved as sponsors in some capacity. Cycling seems to lack them and you need to ask why. Teams are depending either on a joint venture of several small-medium enterprises or some input of state sponsorship. Not that this is all a bad thing but I think it would be great to see in amongst them the like of 'Team Pepsi', 'Team Sony', Team Santander', etc. -big squads racing around the world in their sponsors global markets - is that a possibility or a pipe dream?
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    Top_Bhoy wrote:
    [
    I and many others couldn't care less about a certain rider so you need to identify 'you guys'



    .

    LOL Lets not kid ourselves here this is all about the potential downfall of LA, there is undoubted glee in Pro Race posters at that propsect. But as i said previously lets wait and see what weve got here before getting too excited about it all.
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    afx237vi wrote:
    Dave_1 wrote:
    afx237vi wrote:
    Dave_1 wrote:
    ...who did LA cheat in the races? You really think the others didn't use? Do we really want that laundry washed in public? I'd prefer he wasn't caught even though have not doubt he used... but simply..on a cost benefit anaylsis it isn't worth it....he'll be retired in 12 months from road racing

    So you think Wiggins is dirty, eh? Interesting.

    clue ... 1999-2005

    Sorry, my psychic abilities appear to be on the wane. Must get that checked.
    .

    Rather than getting your psychic abilities checked It would be much simpler for you if read the original post which Dave was replying to as it contained this


    "If Armstrong was a doper for his 7 tour wins"
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • top_bhoy
    top_bhoy Posts: 1,424
    Moray Gub wrote:
    Top_Bhoy wrote:
    [
    I and many others couldn't care less about a certain rider so you need to identify 'you guys'



    .

    LOL Lets not kid ourselves here this is all about the potential downfall of LA, there is undoubted glee in Pro Race posters at that propsect.
    Really...not from me it isn't. Dopers are dopers, whether they are LA or Wiggins or Cav or.....so it still remains, 'you guys' have to be better identified because it is not clear who is being referred to.
  • ressac
    ressac Posts: 25
    I can't believe this childish naivety!

    Unfortunately, the using of drugs is in-wrought with professional sports. Every pro athlete is using them, that's for sure. Even chess players using drugs that help them to concentrate better.
    Of course Wiggins is using them, and of course Armstrong, Ulrich and everyone in the peloton uses them... Come on...
  • GavH
    GavH Posts: 933
    I agree (sort of) with Dave. Draw a line in the sand somewhere, preferably now and say "Let's ensure the sport is clean 100% from here on in". If we can do that, then the sport can only continue to grow. Punishing people for cheating 10 years ago - what is that going to achieve exactly?

    If LA is outed as a long term drugs cheat and that is cited as the reason for his 7 TdF wins, and it will be by the popular press and layman, then that is the credibility of the sport tarnished for a VERY long time. That little gem becomes headline news around the world due to LAs 'popularity/notiriety' and his Livestrong campaign. No commercial organisation will want their name involved in such a sport. Look what happened to Tiger Woods just because he was outed as an adulterer! :shock: Ok, so they dropped the individual and not the game of golf per se, but to a lot of folks, LA IS road cycling.
  • Langman
    Langman Posts: 178
    Also sports need heros and Armstrong is a guy that everyone can respect, infact people from other sports may hold Armstrong in higher regard because they are not so aware about the rumours. If Armstrong was exposed as a cheat then the whole last 10 years in cycling have been a disgrace and every cyclist going forward would be hard pressed to convince us that they are clean, I think the sponsors would run a mile and TV would dry up.