753R frame advice

lastpubrunner
lastpubrunner Posts: 108
edited December 2009 in Workshop
I've recently acquired a (mid 1980s) Reynolds 753R (the imperial size 753 racing tube set) frame - it has a Raleigh SB number and 753R decals, so I presume that it is 753 ?

The rear dropouts are 126mm; I heard that 753 frames cannot be cold-sprung.

What would be the best choice for wheels - should I go for a 7 speed cassette (will one fit ?) or should I look for a 6 speed freewheel ?

Any other advice about suitable bits would be gratefully received.

Thank you

Comments

  • Sirius631
    Sirius631 Posts: 991
    The general rule about 753 is that you can't bend tubes. That is why you would never get 753 time trial bikes with bowed seat tubes, as was the fashion for funny bikes at the time. I don't know if this applies to resetting the gap between the rear dropouts to 130mm, as I believe these tubes were thicker than those of the main triangle. If you want to investigate that route give Brian Rourke in Stoke a call, they should know if it was possible. I'd get them to do the work as well, as what you have is a quality machine, handbuilt in Ilkeston, which deserves to have it's dropouts set tuely parallel by someone who knows what they are doing.

    If you are going down the retro route, having not had the frame altered, you could give these people a call:

    http://www.campyoldy.co.uk/index.htm

    Hope this helps.
    To err is human, but to make a real balls up takes a super computer.
  • mmacavity
    mmacavity Posts: 781
    http://equusbicycle.com/bike/reynolds/R ... -sizes.jpg

    Reynolds 753 chainstays are only 0.6mm thick. If you try to pull the dropouts appart, the chainstays will bent all too easily, and probably result in a crack just behind the chainstay bridge over time.
  • Sirius631
    Sirius631 Posts: 991
    mmacavity wrote:
    http://equusbicycle.com/bike/reynolds/Reynolds-tubing-sizes.jpg

    Reynolds 753 chainstays are only 0.6mm thick. If you try to pull the dropouts appart, the chainstays will bent all too easily, and probably result in a crack just behind the chainstay bridge over time.

    Probably best leave them as they are then, and to get the retro components.
    To err is human, but to make a real balls up takes a super computer.
  • lastpubrunner
    lastpubrunner Posts: 108
    Sirius631 wrote:
    The general rule about 753 is that you can't bend tubes. That is why you would never get 753 time trial bikes with bowed seat tubes, as was the fashion for funny bikes at the time. I don't know if this applies to resetting the gap between the rear dropouts to 130mm, as I believe these tubes were thicker than those of the main triangle. If you want to investigate that route give Brian Rourke in Stoke a call, they should know if it was possible. I'd get them to do the work as well, as what you have is a quality machine, handbuilt in Ilkeston, which deserves to have it's dropouts set tuely parallel by someone who knows what they are doing.

    If you are going down the retro route, having not had the frame altered, you could give these people a call:

    http://www.campyoldy.co.uk/index.htm

    Hope this helps.

    Many thanks for your reply - contacted Brian Rourke this morning; I was told that 753 frames cannot be cold set.

    I've spotted these: http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/product-Sunt ... r-4530.htm

    IF I were to use a 126 mm oln hub for a cassette, would any 6 or 7 speed cassette fit ? Would there be any sort of restriction in the range ? Would the cassettes be readily available ?

    Could these be built into a suitable wheel ?

    Thank you for taking the trouble to reply !
  • daccordimark
    daccordimark Posts: 68
    From what I remember Suntour cassette hubs aren't interchangable with other brands so you would be restricted to their own cassettes. I personally wouldn't shell out for obsolete hubs from Suntour as you may have trouble getting hold of the cassettes down the line even if you could get one now. The alternative is old-fashioned hubs and a freewheel. Either way you're looking at limited availability these days. I know this from my own experience.
  • mmacavity
    mmacavity Posts: 781
    The Reynolds 753 seat tube is 0.5mm thick at the top and 0.7mm at the bottom.
    So if the outside diameter is inch and an eigth = 28.6mm what size seat pillar is the right size?

    28.6 - (2 times 0.5) = 27.6mm
    allowing for some clearance between seat pillar and seat tube say 0.2mm then 27.4mm seems to be the answer.
    Just a thought.
  • ride_whenever
    ride_whenever Posts: 13,279
    couldn't you space down a 130mm hub using the lockrings etc.
    Neeermad
    Carbon 456
    456 lefty
    Pompino
    White Inbred
  • ynyswen24
    ynyswen24 Posts: 703
    If you want a quality item to go with a quality frame what a bout a Royce hub?

    www.royce-uk.co.uk

    I know they do screw on freewheel hubs in 126mm, not sure about the cassette ones.
  • lastpubrunner
    lastpubrunner Posts: 108
    ynyswen24 wrote:
    If you want a quality item to go with a quality frame what a bout a Royce hub?

    www.royce-uk.co.uk

    I know they do screw on freewheel hubs in 126mm, not sure about the cassette ones.

    I hadn't heard of Royce hubs - until now.

    I've now currently got four hubs as possibilities (all for freewheels 126mm)

    Mavic 501s, C-Record,(modern day) Suntour Superbe Pro, and finally Royce Royce sounds expensive - don't know if I'll be able to afford them ! Might it be worth 'splashing out on a Royce hub ? Would I notice any difference ?

    Are they 'much of a muchness' or does one of these stand out ?

    Thank everyone who has taken the trouble to respond !!!
  • mmacavity
    mmacavity Posts: 781
    Might be worth looking at:
    http://www.raleighbikes.com/
  • ynyswen24
    ynyswen24 Posts: 703
    They're all good makes of hubs, no doubting that. Royce are a small british comapny and can provide pretty much any spoke drilling you might fancy. They were good enough for Boardman when he was racing and provided the hubs for his Athletes Hour record. Good company, no disrespect to Campag...
  • balthazar
    balthazar Posts: 1,565
    lastpubrunner wrote:
    ynyswen24 wrote:
    If you want a quality item to go with a quality frame what a bout a Royce hub?

    www.royce-uk.co.uk

    I know they do screw on freewheel hubs in 126mm, not sure about the cassette ones.

    I hadn't heard of Royce hubs - until now.

    I've now currently got four hubs as possibilities (all for freewheels 126mm)

    Mavic 501s, C-Record,(modern day) Suntour Superbe Pro, and finally Royce Royce sounds expensive - don't know if I'll be able to afford them ! Might it be worth 'splashing out on a Royce hub ? Would I notice any difference ?

    Are they 'much of a muchness' or does one of these stand out ?

    Thank everyone who has taken the trouble to respond !!!

    All are very good – the Mavic, the Royce and the SunTour use cartridge bearings, which you may or may not prefer to the Cmpag's cup and cone. Royce hubs are beautifully made, as the price suggests; but my pick of that list would be the Superbe Pro - that was some of the finest bike kit ever, in my judgment, much underestimated, and incredibly well made. If you ever find a NOS crankset, snap it up!
  • lastpubrunner
    lastpubrunner Posts: 108
    balthazar wrote:
    lastpubrunner wrote:
    ynyswen24 wrote:
    If you want a quality item to go with a quality frame what a bout a Royce hub?

    www.royce-uk.co.uk

    I know they do screw on freewheel hubs in 126mm, not sure about the cassette ones.

    I hadn't heard of Royce hubs - until now.

    I've now currently got four hubs as possibilities (all for freewheels 126mm)

    Mavic 501s, C-Record,(modern day) Suntour Superbe Pro, and finally Royce Royce sounds expensive - don't know if I'll be able to afford them ! Might it be worth 'splashing out on a Royce hub ? Would I notice any difference ?

    Are they 'much of a muchness' or does one of these stand out ?

    Thank everyone who has taken the trouble to respond !!!

    All are very good – the Mavic, the Royce and the SunTour use cartridge bearings, which you may or may not prefer to the Cmpag's cup and cone. Royce hubs are beautifully made, as the price suggests; but my pick of that list would be the Superbe Pro - that was some of the finest bike kit ever, in my judgment, much underestimated, and incredibly well made. If you ever find a NOS crankset, snap it up!

    Are these the same model of Superbe Pro ?

    http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/cid/SNQ1WKNL ... e-3282.htm

    I'd be interested to know.

    Thanks for all the replies fellas !
  • lastpubrunner
    lastpubrunner Posts: 108
    mmacavity wrote:
    Might be worth looking at:
    http://www.raleighbikes.com/

    You diamond - that's brilliant !!!

    A great site - Ta v. much !!!
  • alan_sherman
    alan_sherman Posts: 1,157
    have you actually measured the spacing? If slightly oversize at manufacture it might be 130mm!

    But assuming that the drop outs are 126mm (actual) you have a number of options depending on shifting choice.

    I'm a shimano users so firstly I would get hold of a decent 7 speed freehub which is 126mm spaced - New old stock ultegra or dura ace if possible, or there are other firms too mentioned above which are possible. Cassette hubs are stronger than freewheel hubs due to the bearings being spaced wider apart.

    Now the part where you need to make some real decisions - do you want to use STIs or down tube / bar end shifters? Eitehr way if you want indexing you need to match cogs and shifters.

    If you want STI then you could get old stock 8 speed STIs and use a 7 speed cassette (At this point have a good read of Sheldon: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/k7.html)

    Or as Sheldon points out you could use 8 cogs of 9 speed set to have slightly more modern 9 speed kit. Beware alloy spiders on cassettes though!

    There might be a possibility of using 8 or even 9 of 10 speed cassettes but it would be a real faff to avoid the now-standard spiders for the larger cogs and still get shifting ramps to line up.



    If you use campag then I don't knwo the compatability so well but It is likely that similar scenarios are true

    Good luck
  • balthazar
    balthazar Posts: 1,565
    lastpubrunner wrote:
    [

    Are these the same model of Superbe Pro ?

    http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/cid/SNQ1WKNL ... e-3282.htm
    Yes. Lovely stuff. Of course, all screw-on freewheel designs have the problem that their axles are not well supported at the right side, hence they are prone to snapping axles; solving that, was the chief benefit of freehubs. Still, as they go, Superbe Pro's as good as it gets, and interestingly rare.

    More generally, I'd suggest trial fitting a modern 130mm wheel. Just because nobody would want to cold-set the frame, doesn't mean you can't manually spring it whenever you refit the wheel. It's only 2mm each side.
  • lastpubrunner
    lastpubrunner Posts: 108
    On the frame, a sort of 'tab' can be seen (below the top tube and close to the head stem) - what is it for ?
  • balthazar
    balthazar Posts: 1,565
    lastpubrunner wrote:
    On the frame, a sort of 'tab' can be seen (below the top tube and close to the head stem) - what is it for ?
    If its attached to the head tube, it's a pump peg, for locating a pump along the top tube. If it's attached to the top tube, it's for holding a race number.
  • lastpubrunner
    lastpubrunner Posts: 108
    balthazar wrote:
    lastpubrunner wrote:
    On the frame, a sort of 'tab' can be seen (below the top tube and close to the head stem) - what is it for ?
    If its attached to the head tube, it's a pump peg, for locating a pump along the top tube. If it's attached to the top tube, it's for holding a race number.

    Thank you for that info. balthazar.
    It is attached to the underside of the top tube - there are also pump pegs, but the tab is flatter.

    If it is a race frame ( the decals do say 753R), then why aren't the dropouts drilled out as on some Raleigh 753 frames and why isn't the BB 'cutout' ?
  • balthazar
    balthazar Posts: 1,565
    lastpubrunner wrote:
    Thank you for that info. balthazar.
    It is attached to the underside of the top tube - there are also pump pegs, but the tab is flatter.

    If it is a race frame ( the decals do say 753R), then why aren't the dropouts drilled out as on some Raleigh 753 frames and why isn't the BB 'cutout' ?
    It's for a race number, then. Lugs, dropouts, BB shells, and other frame sundries aren't part of the "tubeset". The framebuilder will choose them as he sees fit.
  • andy162
    andy162 Posts: 634
    balthazar wrote:
    lastpubrunner wrote:
    Thank you for that info. balthazar.
    It is attached to the underside of the top tube - there are also pump pegs, but the tab is flatter.

    If it is a race frame ( the decals do say 753R), then why aren't the dropouts drilled out as on some Raleigh 753 frames and why isn't the BB 'cutout' ?
    It's for a race number, then. Lugs, dropouts, BB shells, and other frame sundries aren't part of the "tubeset". The framebuilder will choose them as he sees fit.

    I've got a mid 80's 753 Raleigh, it too is an Ilkeston custom frame with an "SB" frame number. Mine hasn't got a cut out B/B either, nor are the dropouts drilled. As Balthazar says, these framesets were custom made so each one could be specced differently.

    It's got 6spd Super Record on it. Non indexed downtube shifters, brake cables poking out from the top of the levers etc.I just didn't fancy the idea of running it with more modern components. It's spec is as it would've been back then. I've got a Addict R1 with SRAM Red so the differences are huge between retro tackle & modern, but that's the whole point??

    There's also a group on Yahoo with all the info regarding Ilkeston frames. Google Raleigh Team Pro's. There's also a database that may help you with dating your frame. It would appear mines from late 85 with SB8241.

    Great machines, don't be scared to use it!!
  • mmacavity
    mmacavity Posts: 781
    Tab on underside of of top tube could be for race number. As well as rider in race having a number on himself in pro races the frame will have a number on it for the photo finish.

    The righthand (Campagnolo) dropout on some frames have got drilled and tapped holes. These holes were drilled and tapped by Campagnolo for a piece of aluminium made by Campagnolo to be fixed onto the frame, to be used as a chainhanger. It never caught on because it took up the space that could have been used by anthother sprocket.

    Raleigh did drill some dropouts but not all.
  • lastpubrunner
    lastpubrunner Posts: 108
    andy162 wrote:
    balthazar wrote:
    lastpubrunner wrote:
    Thank you for that info. balthazar.
    It is attached to the underside of the top tube - there are also pump pegs, but the tab is flatter.

    If it is a race frame ( the decals do say 753R), then why aren't the dropouts drilled out as on some Raleigh 753 frames and why isn't the BB 'cutout' ?
    It's for a race number, then. Lugs, dropouts, BB shells, and other frame sundries aren't part of the "tubeset". The framebuilder will choose them as he sees fit.

    I've got a mid 80's 753 Raleigh, it too is an Ilkeston custom frame with an "SB" frame number. Mine hasn't got a cut out B/B either, nor are the dropouts drilled. As Balthazar says, these framesets were custom made so each one could be specced differently.

    I've got a Addict R1 with SRAM Red so the differences are huge between retro tackle & modern, but that's the whole point??

    Great machines, don't be scared to use it!!

    Ta for a great & informative reply !

    An Addict R1 !!! (Drools with envy). By comparison, your 753 Raleigh must seem ancient.

    Is there anything that you prefer about your 753 ? How can you say it is a 'great machine' when you have an Addict R1 ?

    And just how good is a Addict R1 to ride ? Do you compete on it ? It must be no more than 2/3 the weight of the Raleigh ! I'd love to try one some day !
  • andy162
    andy162 Posts: 634
    The differences between an Addict & a 25 yr old Raleigh are bit like trying to compare a new 911 & an E-type. Both lovely in their own right. Addict R1's are super light & stiff. Built with Red it's the lightest thing I've had. Saying that, the Raleigh is lighter than my Ribble winter hack!
  • lastpubrunner
    lastpubrunner Posts: 108
    Is there any reason why the seat stays on my frame fasten in such a way - right at the top & back of the seat tube ?

    Does it confer any advantage ?

    The bike on Ebay (link below) is also 753; but it is entirely different to my frame. It has different stays.

    http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Raleigh-Special-P ... 2c521ac9e4

    There appears to have been quite a lot of variety amongst the Raleigh Special Division bikes.

    A contact has offered me a '126mm 7sp Ultegra 6402 HyperGlide compatible cassette hub' - would that be suitable for my bike ?

    Regards.

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