Which steel HT frame?

Northwind

I asked Charge about this, they said flat out don't run it over 100mm. But I've heard from other people who were told 120mm. Bit odd. Seatpost'll be slack as anything with a longer fork mine

mingmong

ravey1981 wrote:

@gs3

I've got a duster frame on order (should be arriving in the next few weeks) and have a set of 09 revelations to put on it. The head angle is 71 deg, what would be the ideal travel to run the forks at?

If i ran them at around 120 would it be too slack and knacker the steering?

also to the OP, have you had a look at the sanderson breath?

Added to the short list. Cheers.

thelonegroover

I finally got to compare the Orange P7 and R8 together. I'm not convinced the exercise was completely worthwhile, only being able to ride over cobbles in the car park, but I can confirm the R8 is lighter when you pick them both up together. However, the P7 definitely felt more comfortable when ridden on the flat and I could not really tell the weight difference when riding. My conclusion is, even though the R8 is made of 853 and the P7 is made of 631 (which is also air hardening and almost as strong), and has the added advantage of a swing arm adjustable/sliding drop out, I think I'd go for the P7 (S) and save £250 for the party.

mingmong

Thelonegroover wrote:

I finally got to compare the Orange P7 and R8 together. I'm not convinced the exercise was completely worthwhile, only being able to ride over cobbles in the car park, but I can confirm the R8 is lighter when you pick them both up together. However, the P7 definitely felt more comfortable when ridden on the flat and I could not really tell the weight difference when riding. My conclusion is, even though the R8 is made of 853 and the P7 is made of 631 (which is also air hardening and almost as strong), and has the added advantage of a swing arm adjustable/sliding drop out, I think I'd go for the P7 (S) and save £250 for the party.

Cheers TLG.

I've swayed towards the 456.

I've asked to borrow my mate's P7 (pikes, xt, hope) for a couple of hours to see how I get on with it this w/e.

Jury could still be out.

If OO had stock, I'd have probably emptied my wallet by now.

meesterbond

You can pre order the 456 from the website now... they seem to have most colours and sizes available - to be delivered in late Oct / earlry Nov...

Of all of them, I'd definitely go for the Soul, it's just with a 456 at £135 it's practically rude not too... that was my reasoning when I pressed the buy button last night anyway!

mingmong

meesterbond wrote:

You can pre order the 456 from the website now... they seem to have most colours and sizes available - to be delivered in late Oct / earlry Nov...

Of all of them, I'd definitely go for the Soul, it's just with a 456 at £135 it's practically rude not too... that was my reasoning when I pressed the buy button last night anyway!

Just spoke to them, they're expected in 3 weeks. Merry Christmas!

paul.skibum

It's not rude not to order an On-One. It's just common sense. Mine had the audacity to have a flat tyre this morning FFS! It's going in the skip, this could be the straw that broke the camels back. :x

thelonegroover

I have to say, I’m slightly disappointed. Having finally selected my steel hardtail of choice, I can confirm my fears and find its £49.99 over the £1000 ride to work threshold. Since my company deals only with the Halfords scheme I think I need to start again.

I’m not sure what percentage of buyers use C2W, but Orange seem to have lost at lease one potential customer due to the £1000 limit of C2W! May now have to look at the Genesis Altitude 10 at £999.99

supersonic

Typically 853 has a UTS 50% higher than 631

mingmong

supersonic wrote:

Typically 853 has a UTS 50% higher than 631

So then, with the above statement, is a Rocklobster better over the rougher stuff than a 456.. please advise.

supersonic

Depends on how is built - there is more metal in the 456! And the latter will take a bigger fork.

meesterbond

Thelonegroover wrote:

I have to say, I’m slightly disappointed. Having finally selected my steel hardtail of choice, I can confirm my fears and find its £49.99 over the £1000 ride to work threshold. Since my company deals only with the Halfords scheme I think I need to start again.

I’m not sure what percentage of buyers use C2W, but Orange seem to have lost at lease one potential customer due to the £1000 limit of C2W! May now have to look at the Genesis Altitude 10 at £999.99

Erm, the £1000 limit is there because that's the limit at which you need a Consumer Credit Licence and the admin starts to get too onerous... as I understood it though, you are still able to claim £1k on the scheme and make up any different yourself...

supersonic

Many places don't allow you to top up anymore.

blister pus

supersonic wrote:

Typically 853 has a UTS 50% higher than 631

So does it work out that 725 is 25% higher UTS than 631 but 25% UTS less than 853 and sits in the middle? Is that the rough idea and pecking order?

meesterbond

supersonic wrote:

Many places don't allow you to top up anymore.

Then I stand (sit) corrected... any ideas why?
Unless there's been a change to the tax laws governing this, surely it's in their interest to see you the more expensive bike!

supersonic

About that yes.

531 is 4130 cromo.
631 is air hardening manganese steel
725 is heat terated 4130 cromo
853 is heat treated air hardening manganese steel

The UTS (and yield strength) goes up as you go through the list. Stiffness is same for all though, as is density. 753 is weird stuff for beardies and brazers ;-)

thelonegroover

I agree with you, 853 is stronger than most of the other steels, my point was, in practice if most other things are equal, the difference is not really noticeable.

supersonic

True - unless you crash lol.

Northwind

Thelonegroover wrote:

I agree with you, 853 is stronger than most of the other steels, my point was, in practice if most other things are equal, the difference is not really noticeable.

Well, yeah, but then the point is that you don't make the other things equal, if you're building in 853 you either make it stronger or lighter, otherwise there's no point in using it. So changing the steel alone makes little difference but changing the design to use the steel's properties, that makes a difference.

ESC

In about three weeks time I'm building up a Genesis Alptitude with an RS revelation team air 120-150 fork, Sram X7, Truvative and Avid components will let you know how it goes. Not sure what wheels yet tho but probably Mavic rims, 521's maybe as they've served me well in the past!

thelonegroover

Northwind wrote:

Thelonegroover wrote:

I agree with you, 853 is stronger than most of the other steels, my point was, in practice if most other things are equal, the difference is not really noticeable.

Well, yeah, but then the point is that you don't make the other things equal, if you're building in 853 you either make it stronger or lighter, otherwise there's no point in using it. So changing the steel alone makes little difference but changing the design to use the steel's properties, that makes a difference.

But, in the case of the Orange P7 and R8. The P7 is listed as all mountain, the R8 is not. So I would have thought the P7 would be designed to be stronger, so why didn't they make that out of 853. Yes, the R8 is lighter, but not significantly so.

astonandon

Money being no object, a Dekerf Team SST sounds like exactly what you need. Unbeatable.

thelonegroover

Can't argue with that, very nice.

Northwind

Thelonegroover wrote:

But, in the case of the Orange P7 and R8. The P7 is listed as all mountain, the R8 is not. So I would have thought the P7 would be designed to be stronger, so why didn't they make that out of 853. Yes, the R8 is lighter, but not significantly so.

I've not seen a weight for the R8, but it should be a good bit lighter, even if it were made of the same tubes. It's weird that/

hoathy

can i go ahead and suggest the kona explosif again?

Anonymous

Genesis Altitude is the best choice of all, look no further

hoathy

nah, to new skool. steel is reel, but retro steel is super reel.

thelonegroover

Northwind wrote:

Thelonegroover wrote:

But, in the case of the Orange P7 and R8. The P7 is listed as all mountain, the R8 is not. So I would have thought the P7 would be designed to be stronger, so why didn't they make that out of 853. Yes, the R8 is lighter, but not significantly so.

I've not seen a weight for the R8, but it should be a good bit lighter, even if it were made of the same tubes. It's weird that/

Orange quoted the R8 as 11.7kg, the P7 as 12.8kg. As I said, you can tell if you lift both together on in each hand, but not when riding.

thelonegroover

Hoathy wrote:

can i go ahead and suggest the kona explosif again?

I'm not sure this is a current bike, the newest complete bike I can find is an '06. Frame only is a 2007/2008, and that's £500!

bomberesque

Thelonegroover wrote:

Orange quoted the R8 as 11.7kg, the P7 as 12.8kg. As I said, you can tell if you lift both together on in each hand, but not when riding.

if the difference in frame weights is a kilo, then that is very significant indeed. I suspect the build has the most to do with that (coil forks on the P7...?) Still, the difference is smaller than you would expect to see between an XC whippet and a burly trail muncher. do you have a link to the exact builds?

as for why they didn't use 853 on the P7, cost most likely plus a dose of "we're making it burly, so using extra metal to get our strength won't affect all up weight *that* much in overall terms and gives us more stiffness"

if the Explosif has been discontinued then that is probably just aswell, as I am sooooo tempted to buy one and SS it .... even though I built a dream-bike SS just 5 months ago :oops: