Which steel HT frame?

mingmong

On the money, depends what the tax man comes back with

Should have about 15 to go at.

ride_whenever

I'd go for the inbred over the 456 for what you want, the 456 isn't too nice when wound right down, the inbred is okay-ish at 120mm (descending only) but better at 100mm with some tough forks it makes a great long legged bike. The 456 has shorter legs and more playful so horses for courses.

Ideally I'd try them both to see what they're like, where are you, you could always pop down and come out with me to try them both 8)

mingmong

bungalistic wrote:

MingMong wrote:

II ride in the Peak District and Wharncliffe as well as open trails. Not big hit stuff though. Something that I can climb and descend over fairly rocky stuff though. I'd say a mixture of XC and AM 70:30 ratio.

What do you think?

Sounds like the Cotic Soul or 456 would be just about right for you, strong steel frames, yet can be built up fairly light for the more XC orientated riding you like doing, if you can get hold of some a set of the air Pikes would be great on it, though the new adjustable Revs sound about spot on for what you want.

Cheers Bungalistic

Pikes seem to be coming out on top. One of the lads I was out with two weeks ago in Wharncliffe had them on his P7. He flew on them.

bomberesque

beware, the pike is a lardy fork.

don't get me wrong, I love mine but they're bloody burly for trail riding. Have a look at the '10 revelation Maxle lites, should be considerably lighter and similar(ish) stiffness. on a 456 or P7 it would be right at home (although I'd still consider a revelation), but I wouldn't put one on one of the more whippet steel frames (Rocklobster etc)

Northwind

ride_whenever wrote:

I'd go for the inbred over the 456 for what you want, the 456 isn't too nice when wound right down, the inbred is okay-ish at 120mm (descending only) but better at 100mm with some tough forks it makes a great long legged bike. The 456 has shorter legs and more playful so horses for courses.

Hum. My Scandal had almost the same geometry as an Inbred and it was not nice at 120mm, great at 100mm mind but at anything over 110mm it lost all its composure and accuracy. I thought it was OK, til I rode a Soul But since the Soul's better at 100mm and massively better at 120mm it really showed the Scandal up badly.

dunker

rock lobster 853 (think they'll even face the headtube and BB if you email them) or,
cotic soul. but really worth the extra £££? dunno.

supersonic

853 steel is good stuff.

dave_hill

Question is, are 456s still available? According to the On-One website they've sold out of everything and haven't got a due date for any more, depsite the fact that they're advertising some limited colourways.

Plus I've heard a rumour that they're being discontinued anyway.

bomberesque

dave_hill wrote:

Question is, are 456s still available? According to the On-One website they've sold out of everything and haven't got a due date for any more, depsite the fact that they're advertising some limited colourways.

Plus I've heard a rumour that they're being discontinued anyway.

I was wondering what the change in the staffing would bring to On-One but the only way I can see them discontinuing that cash-cow is if Brant took the rights to the design with him, which is possible but I sincerely doubt. I think they just ran out and have been waiting for new stock tbh (the limited colours post mentions October delivery) Wouldn't be the first time On-one have gone a couple of weeks / a month short of stock.... good fo them and their popularity I say.

designs from their new designer Steve-O don't exactly seem to be coming thick and fast tbh.

ride_whenever

Northwind wrote:

ride_whenever wrote:

I'd go for the inbred over the 456 for what you want, the 456 isn't too nice when wound right down, the inbred is okay-ish at 120mm (descending only) but better at 100mm with some tough forks it makes a great long legged bike. The 456 has shorter legs and more playful so horses for courses.

Hum. My Scandal had almost the same geometry as an Inbred and it was not nice at 120mm, great at 100mm mind but at anything over 110mm it lost all its composure and accuracy. I thought it was OK, til I rode a Soul But since the Soul's better at 100mm and massively better at 120mm it really showed the Scandal up badly.

I do agree with that, i had u-turn toras on my inbred, only ever took them up to 120 for fast wide rocky descents for a touch more composure, steering wasn't hugely necessary on the particular descent on the local loop.

Try swinging a leg over a 456, twitchy but fast at 110mm, confident and responsive at 120mm, tanks through everything at 140mm.

mingmong

ride_whenever wrote:

Northwind wrote:

ride_whenever wrote:

I'd go for the inbred over the 456 for what you want, the 456 isn't too nice when wound right down, the inbred is okay-ish at 120mm (descending only) but better at 100mm with some tough forks it makes a great long legged bike. The 456 has shorter legs and more playful so horses for courses.

Hum. My Scandal had almost the same geometry as an Inbred and it was not nice at 120mm, great at 100mm mind but at anything over 110mm it lost all its composure and accuracy. I thought it was OK, til I rode a Soul But since the Soul's better at 100mm and massively better at 120mm it really showed the Scandal up badly.

I do agree with that, i had u-turn toras on my inbred, only ever took them up to 120 for fast wide rocky descents for a touch more composure, steering wasn't hugely necessary on the particular descent on the local loop.

Try swinging a leg over a 456, twitchy but fast at 110mm, confident and responsive at 120mm, tanks through everything at 140mm.

456 is winning the vote at present. Shame there's none in Doncaster

bike-a-swan

rock lobster might suffer in the peaks- i love mine, but if i was riding round there a lot, i'd want something with a bit more 'take cock-ups on the chin', particularly in the tyre department

mingmong

bike-a-swan wrote:

rock lobster might suffer in the peaks- i love mine, but if i was riding round there a lot, i'd want something with a bit more 'take fool-ups on the chin', particularly in the tyre department

Purely on looks, I'd go with the RL.

Soul Boy

COTIC SOUL! opps sorry, did I shout*? :oops:


*hope you're hearing me

mingmong

Soul Boy wrote:

COTIC SOUL! opps sorry, did I shout*? :oops:


*hope you're hearing me

Another one on the tally for the Soul.


The list reads (in no particular order) :

Genesis Altitude – Need to evaluate
Evil Sovereign (This looks a bit 'big hit' for me)
Pipedream Cirus – Need to evaluate
Charge Duster – Need to evaluate
Cotic Soul – Need to evaluate
Orange P7 – One the shortlist
Rock Lobster 853 – Maybe a little light for the Peak
One One 456 – Not available, but seems to be the current favourite
Cove Handjob – Need to evaluate

supersonic

You still haven't said what parts you have, or plan to use.

mingmong

I have an old bomber fork and some hayes brakes. Not planning to use them if enough tax comes back.

supersonic

What travel fork?

mingmong

100

thelonegroover

I’m currently waiting for my LBS to build an Orange R8 S, so I can evaluate it against a P7 S, I also need to compare a Genesis Altitude 10 with a 20. I’m not sure 853 and better kit is worth £450.

bomberesque

"normal" 456 will be a bit steep with 100mm fork iirc. This one reason why they developed the "summer season" variant, slacker base HA so it's a bit more acceptable at 100.

as for comparing the R8 to the P7, I'll be interested in your conclusions, I suspect they'l feel like *completely* different bikes and as such, it'll be less a value consideration and more a style one ie; "yup I want that style of bike rather than that one" but I'll be interested nonetheless

Evil Sovereign is a big hit frame ... but then so is the 456. I'd say the Sov is the rich cousin of the 456 in many ways. Not sure if I'd buy a new one; they've dropped 853 for 4130 cro-mo and the double rear dropouts are gone (you used to have 2" adjustment in the wheelbase). It's still quite expensive even after these changes and I'm not sure the value stacks up (at least at euro prices).

thelonegroover

All I can really do is ride around the car park over some good old Yorkshire sets (cobbles) but this should be enough to get a feel for the bikes.

gs3

+1 for Charge Duster - absolute blast to ride in the 100mm-ish fork range!

.

ravey1981

@gs3

I've got a duster frame on order (should be arriving in the next few weeks) and have a set of 09 revelations to put on it. The head angle is 71 deg, what would be the ideal travel to run the forks at?

If i ran them at around 120 would it be too slack and knacker the steering?

also to the OP, have you had a look at the sanderson breath?

dave_hill

ravey1981 wrote:

I've got a duster frame on order (should be arriving in the next few weeks) and have a set of 09 revelations to put on it. The head angle is 71 deg, what would be the ideal travel to run the forks at?

What do Charge recommend?

ravey1981 wrote:

If i ran them at around 120 would it be too slack and knacker the steering?

Depends really dunnit? Again, what length forks do Charge recommend? How do you want the bike to ride - sharp and twitchy, neutral, slow and slack?

ravey1981

I emailed charge some time ago asking them about this but got no reply. When bought as a full bike they have 100mm forks fitted so I assume the frame is designed around those. My question really is how much can you up the travel before it adversely affects the feel of the bike.

I do mainly xc/trail/am riding and I'm building the bike up reasonably light. My main bike has 130mm front and 150mm rear and that suits the riding I do perfectly.... i just want a steel hardtail to add to the collection

I guess i'm after a neutral handling...

supersonic

Depnds on the geometry - what is it and with what fork?

ravey1981

seat angle 73.5
head angle 71

2009 Rockshox Revealtion U-turn 110 - 140

gs3

ravey1981

You should be ok to run the Revelations at the lower travel length but I wouldn't run them any longer than the 120mm mark.

The Duster is designed to be run at 100mm. If you want to go longer, I think you can run up to 10-15% extra travel (110mm) without ruining the geometry too much (I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong).

Personally, I run a TALAS 85-125mm Fox fork and find that the bike behaves best around the 100-110mm range. At full travel (125mm) the bike really wanders on the climbs but feels fine on the descents although I'm not sure how much extra stress is being put through the headtube by the extra leverage.

I also find that the longer travel is not required due to a lot of the bump and thump being absorbed by the steel frame - it's quite a change from my old Spesh Rockhopper.

ravey1981

Thanks for that

As you say I'll probably run them at 110 and only turn them up when I'm on an interesting decent.

Really cant wait to get it built up....