Women's RR "Spoiler"

BeaconRuth

Blazing Saddles wrote:

I think Jerry just upped the ante, in terms of derisory comments!

I'll agree with you on that. :roll:

Ruth

Kléber

Pooley's obviously an excellent rider but a bit of a diesel. Even if she'd sat on then she would not have been able to put in a big attack as the hill just wasn't hard enough to make the difference. You can't win 'em all.

Still, I too was wondering what she was doing on the front, it's worth doing a couple of turns to see if you can get others into the chase but Pooley was doing a lot herself without much help at all, not much use if there's no team mate to help.

Just a thought: maybe someone had a word with her and promised a few Swiss francs if she took some extra pulls, or there was a trade team mate standing to benefit from her efforts?

blazing_saddles

BeaconRuth wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

I think Jerry just upped the ante, in terms of derisory comments!

I'll agree with you on that. :roll:

Ruth

Anyhow, look on the bright side, Ruth.
They may seem to be derisory comments, but at least, this year, thay are about Emma, not Nicole.
Much the same was said about her "tactics", at the end of the 2007 race and look what happened in 2008!

Besides, I really am the last person to criticise female cyclists,so I'd better shut up.

stagehopper

Pooley tends to win her races with Cervelo as it's a very strong team, allowing her to make long solo attacks on difficult courses whilst others mark her also very dangerous team mates. She's then very good at staying away and teams leave the chase too late.

Her race today was cooked when Cooke struggled on lap 1. Pooley's said a few things to Cycling Weekly about being diappointed in how she rode and not feeling strong today:

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/lat ... -race.html

However she's had a great season - it's been a real step up for her.

BeaconRuth

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Anyhow, look on the bright side, Ruth.

OK, BS, I'll look on the bright side and say it is nice to see some interest being taken in women's cycling.

They may seem to be derisory comments, but at least, this year, thay are about Emma, not Nicole.

I'm not sure why I should be happy that people are now being patronising about Pooley just because they were previously patronising about Cooke?

Much the same was said about her "tactics", at the end of the 2007 race and look what happened in 2008!

Which rather makes my point. Armchair critics who really don't know what they're talking about. I never doubted Cooke's ability to win a World Championship, and it seemed to me that she just had an incredibly tough task on her hands while she had little team support. Given the tactical complexity of road racing and the difficulty of reading a race and making split-second decisions when you're in the thick of the action, it would be nice if people acknowledged the achievements and congratulated the riders instead of implying that they're half-wits who don't have a clue. There are ways of saying someone could have ridden a tactically better race without being rude and patronising.

Besides, I really am the last person to criticise female cyclists.........

Really? Now you could have had me fooled on that one.

Ruth

blazing_saddles

I would have left it. Leaving the sentence structure aside.
Sex has about as much to do with it, as armchairs do to understanding race tactics.
It's a forum. Criticism and praise.
"Little team support" doesn't exactly compliment the efforts of Sharon Laws and Lizzie A.

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/lat ... -race.html
Emma Pooley, rather making our point.

afx237vi

BeaconRuth wrote:

Chip \'oyler wrote:

But then again I haven't seen all her other great rides this year - and bearing in mind she didn't do as well in the TT as expected, perhaps she's a bit off colour?

Hmm. 11th in the Worlds TT and 14th in the Worlds RR and someone kindly suggests you might be "off-colour".

If any of our male cyclists achieved 11th in the Worlds TT and then spent the whole of the Worlds RR looking extremely comfortable and riding strongly, always in the leading group, would anyone suggest that they had been having a bad week?

After Cooke had dropped out the only way GB were likely to end up with a rider on the podium was if there were at least 2 of them in the final selection. There wasn't. Maybe they could have ridden a bit more conservatively earlier on, but the dominant GB rider earlier on was Pooley and she WAS still there until Italy played the 1-2 and Vos powered away as only she can................. I hardly feel Pooley deserves derisory comments or suggestions that she might not be well.

Ruth

In reply to your second paragraph, I think it's all about expectations. No-one really expects the British men to do anything tomorrow, so no-one will care if only one or two of the riders finish the race. However, if Mark Cavendish finishes outside the top 10 in next year's race, then he'll probably get a mauling on this forum.

People were expecting Pooley to put in a great performance today - and by her standards her performance was below par.

Tom Butcher

BeaconRuth wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Anyhow, look on the bright side, Ruth.

OK, BS, I'll look on the bright side and say it is nice to see some interest being taken in women's cycling.

They may seem to be derisory comments, but at least, this year, thay are about Emma, not Nicole.

I'm not sure why I should be happy that people are now being patronising about Pooley just because they were previously patronising about Cooke?

Much the same was said about her "tactics", at the end of the 2007 race and look what happened in 2008!

Which rather makes my point. Armchair critics who really don't know what they're talking about. I never doubted Cooke's ability to win a World Championship, and it seemed to me that she just had an incredibly tough task on her hands while she had little team support. Given the tactical complexity of road racing and the difficulty of reading a race and making split-second decisions when you're in the thick of the action, it would be nice if people acknowledged the achievements and congratulated the riders instead of implying that they're half-wits who don't have a clue. There are ways of saying someone could have ridden a tactically better race without being rude and patronising.

Besides, I really am the last person to criticise female cyclists.........

Really? Now you could have had me fooled on that one.

Ruth

Only speaking for myself but I don't think I was patronising her - I compared her to Cadel Evans who is a top class rider but a rider who is suited to a certain sort of race - and not the kind of race that developed today. I don't think her tactics were the best but my point was mainly that irrespective of her tactics I don't think she is the kind of rider who was likely to win that race.

Not sure what the relevance of the comment about Cooke is - I thought the way she rode in 2008 was far more patient than I'd seen her in previous world road champs and that probably more than the support of team mates made the difference in the end. In other words changing tactics made a difference.

jerry3571

I think another rider who did less work than last year was Vos. She again thought she is too strong to lose. She should have worked more with Armstrong in the break but again thought she could work them over just by shear strength. Last year she did tonnes of work with Cooke on her back wheel and then got jumped at the finish. She's getting more clever and she will win the Worlds for sure.
I must admit to not being an armchair critic as I've spent years doing road racing. I saw Dan Lloyd (Cervelo) grow up riding Thursday nights races near Bournemouth where you would learn quick or told "if your not going to work then f=ck off" and my mate saw Eamon Dean (big chap- 24hr record holder) grab one of his club member's saddle and lift and throw the rider up the road telling him to get to the front. (Barnsfield Heath, near Ringwood- best closed roads racing around but rarely used now. - top quality guys too).
Pooley probably didn't have the kick to do the job but she road like a first year 4th Cat.
I must admit during races, I wonder why there are the guys on the front pulling the race along a good pace and I'm sat out of the wind just to jump them at the finish. They can ride a lot stronger than me but blow up before the finish. :? Never understood that one!!?? Pooley did that today.
I think British Cycling has got a bit to answer as Bradley came a cropper and Pooley should have ahd some better advice in the ear.
Cheers Jerry


-Jerry

BeaconRuth

Blazing Saddles wrote:

"Little team support" doesn't exactly compliment the efforts of Sharon Laws and Lizzie A.

I was referring to Cooke in the years before 2008 with that comment, not Pooley today.

Ruth

BeaconRuth

afx237vi wrote:

People were expecting Pooley to put in a great performance today - and by her standards her performance was below par.

I think that is a fair comment, unlike some of the others that have been made.

Ruth

BeaconRuth

Tom Butcher wrote:

Only speaking for myself but I don't think I was patronising her..........

Apologies, I don't think you were one of the ones being rude and patronising - I could see your point even if I disagreed to some extent.

I don't think her tactics were the best but my point was mainly that irrespective of her tactics I don't think she is the kind of rider who was likely to win that race.

I agree with that.

Not sure what the relevance of the comment about Cooke is - I thought the way she rode in 2008 was far more patient than I'd seen her in previous world road champs and that probably more than the support of team mates made the difference in the end. In other words changing tactics made a difference.

Cooke was indeed brilliant in the closing stages last year - but she'd been helped to that point by very strong riding by at least Pooley and Armitstead and some of the rest of the team too IIRC. It seemed to me that the team support she had last year was better than in the previous years, enabling her to hide in the bunch until that very decisive move with Vos, Johansson, Arndt etc. She has always been a prolific winner in the women's pro peleton and I don't see how she could have been if, in general, her tactical ability was in any way lacking.

Ruth

Le Commentateur

Cooke just didn't look race fit, though I didn't see the first hour so don't know how much effort she had to expend to get back to the main group.

Pooley seemed to often lose the wheel in front on the descets and this meant she was working overtime to get back when the roads flattened -- not desireable thing to have to do just before yet another climb. Maybe the wet roads were partly the cause of this.

I'll have to watch the replay to try and see why Vos & others made the critical error of letting Guderzo get away. Up until then the Dutch woman was looking good. Maybe it wasn't so much of a mistake but just perfect timing by the Italian, though I suppose I was hoping for a repeat of last year, with maybe half a dozen riders in contention battling right up the the line.

Anyway, it's history now. It didn't work out for us this time, but there will be other races. Well, in terms of British TV coverage, next year's race.

stagehopper

Well Vos and Armstrong has just put in a lot of effort into bringing back Cantele when Guderzo jumped away just as they bridged. It's not as if Guderzo is a mug, she was the rider who attacked at the top of the last climb in Beijing and got a gap on the peleton before being joined by Cooke, Johansson, Soeder and Villumsen on the descent eventually getting Bronze.

That's also Vos's thrid silver in a row after gold back in 2006 (which is the race people are thinking of when discussing Cooke's tactics - she missed 2007 as she'd had knee surgery).

top_bhoy

BeaconRuth,

Do you think Pooley put in a perfect tactical race? You seem to be very defensive of her for no other reason that she is a woman. If it were a man in the same position, this forum, rightly or wrongly, would be just as negative in their comments. Having just read the entire thread, the gender of the rider in this instance has little to do with many of the comments made, in my opinion of course.

hotoph88

Heck of a lot of comment. Great to see. Vos has three silvers for exactly the same reason that Nicole could be world number 1 and not get gold from 2002 on. The World's is for some - pay back time - no trade team around you, relying on national riders for support. Vos won her gold, being the unknown and sitting on Cooke's moves as she was, as the favourite, forced to counter Arndt and others. After that, Vos was "known" like Cooke was "known" from 2002 on.

Yes you might have team-mates but do they actually do anything for you apart from ride nearby and allow the commentators to say soothing words? I could not see anything Vos's team did for her yesterday. Lizzie did nothing for Emma yesterday and probably was not asked to do anything by team instruction. Lizzie would have been given her own game plan - sit in survive and sprint. According to the BBC interviews, prior to the race, team GB had 3 equally powerful ways of winning. However that was, in hindsight, a misjudgement. At this stage it is no good Lizzie siting in, she cannot get to the business end of a race at this level. That perhaps suggests there was an underestimate of quite what Nicole has managed to achieve, repeatedly, over the years.

Sharon went on the front once and pulled back a single (?) rider who was a definite danger and thereby set it up perfectly for an attack by Emma, which then never materialised. Apart from that I saw nothing else that Sharon did/could do to help Emma. Emma's game plan did not loan itself to help unless Sharon fired up the road and was seen as a threat by other teams who were then forced to chase. Emma could then have countered. I don't know if that was feasible.

In 2008 Cooke, for the first time, had an effective foyle in her team who could actually influence the race - Emma. Emma did not work for Nicole but in both Olympics and World's rode to win the race and in doing so enabled Cooke to respond to other's reactions. Cooke could not have won at Beijing without Emma going up the road. With no Cooke present GB had a single mode of attack and Emma was countered effectively by other teams. Perhaps the expectation for Emma was built on an historical underestimate of quite the work rate Cooke has had to achieve to break the race up so she can somewhat level the odds at the end.

I am sure Vos is getting a slating from some quarters for not winning again. She is World number 1 and has the most ferocious finish. Other riders just are not going to let her get to the finish without her doing more than her fair share of the work. If any other rider goes up the road, the eyes turn. Cooke suffered criticsm of "over-working" in the past and that continues to be made in this thread. The fact is we see only this one race a year and this is the only race they ride in national teams. Sanchez had only one role in that last lap. Sit on Cancellara. He did it and never ever went through properly whenever Cancellara pulled over, regardless of wider tactical situation. Cancellara was the major threat, recognised as such and effectively neutralised. Wherever they finished, Sanchez was going to put his wheel just in front of Cancellara's as they crossed the line. 1st, 4th or 15th, Sanchez was going to beat Cancellara. Cancellara had to do more than his fair share of work if he was going to be in with a sniff of a medal.

As for Emma. I think the most relevant comment is that relating to her trade team. They have been prolific winners all season. Sometimes it is Emma who does not get chased by the other teams and being the excellent athlete she is, she stays away to win. A Nicole actually in the race would have enabled that. I was at Plouay and saw Emma win. Superb, but Vos and Johansson had a different agenda that day.

I believe Emma is being unjustly criticised for not being what others would want her to be. She is an excellent rider and we can be very proud that she rides so well for team GB. In the rest of the season she does not get the credit in the press that her terrific achievements warrant. Were she to be male there is no doubt that she would be a household name like Cav Wiggins or Hoy. Lizzie and Sharon are good but a "no show" by Nicole illustrated to us exactly what she has done over the years. That silver in Madrid was as masterful as any Beijing gold or Varese gold.

Looking ahead. Vos is a great sprinter. Cooke has shown at the National Champs that there was no contest in team GB as to who is the best road finisher. If GB want a gold medal next year they need a lead out train for Nicole. The Germans will have Andt, Worrack and co for Tuetenberg. The Dutch will be stung by Vos's repeated silver and after 3 years underachievement know this is where they can make up for it. The Aussies will be on home turf and practise the show many times. The Lithuanians will be in a line for Zilute. Will team GB lead out Cooke ? Colclough, Williamson, Pooley, Harris and Armistead up to 100m from the line. It could be as certain as Highroad with Cav. I don't think any other nation has the infrastructure (as many riders paid by the lottery, therefore available for collective training) as team GB. Will it happen ?

If as much effort is put into the women's prep as will undoubtedly be put in for Cav, then team GB could take both senior RR Golds. Indeed the Women's medal would be a more likely outcome than the men's, given the more obvious threat and single "trick" the GB men can play.

Le Commentateur

hotoph88 wrote:

Vos has three silvers for exactly the same reason that Nicole could be world number 1 and not get gold from 2002 on.

She should have got gold last year but made a tactical error in attacking on the final climb that was 7kms from the finish, which meant she couldn't quite outsprint Cooke in the last 30 metres. I think she rode a bit differently this year as a result, but was beaten by the numbers: there being two Italians in that final group of four.

FJS

I think at 22 you're allowed to make tactical errors, and learn from them. Last year too naive and early, this year too late and too much bluff.