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Dreadful service received - any options?

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  • cjw wrote:
    When consumers exercise their right to cancel they are under a duty to take reasonable care of the goods and to “restore” them to the supplier. The term “restore” does not permit the supplier to demand that the consumer send back or deliver the goods, but only that the goods are made available to the supplier for collection.

    The Regulations permit the supplier to include in the contract a term requiring the consumer to return the goods to the supplier at their own cost. The supplier may charge for the direct costs of recovering the goods if, on request, the consumer does not return them; this must not be more than the direct costs of recovery, such as postage or, for larger items, the cost of a van collection. Once the consumer has cancelled the order all money paid must be returned within 30 days of the date of cancellation.

    The business is not entitled to charge for recovery of the goods if the consumer also has a statutory right to cancel the contract under other legislation, (for example because they are defective) or if the term requiring the consumer to return the goods is an ‘‘unfair term’’ within the meaning of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 and The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts (Amendment) Regulations 2001.
    .....

    Almost all contracts state that customer pays. But if they didn't, then you are correct.

    Ah I was referencing this bit "The consumer is under no obligation to deliver the goods to the supplier except at the consumer's own premises and in pursuance of a written request by the supplier".[/url]
    'Hello to Jason Isaacs'
  • cjw wrote:
    When consumers exercise their right to cancel they are under a duty to take reasonable care of the goods and to “restore” them to the supplier. The term “restore” does not permit the supplier to demand that the consumer send back or deliver the goods, but only that the goods are made available to the supplier for collection.

    The Regulations permit the supplier to include in the contract a term requiring the consumer to return the goods to the supplier at their own cost. The supplier may charge for the direct costs of recovering the goods if, on request, the consumer does not return them; this must not be more than the direct costs of recovery, such as postage or, for larger items, the cost of a van collection. Once the consumer has cancelled the order all money paid must be returned within 30 days of the date of cancellation.

    The business is not entitled to charge for recovery of the goods if the consumer also has a statutory right to cancel the contract under other legislation, (for example because they are defective) or if the term requiring the consumer to return the goods is an ‘‘unfair term’’ within the meaning of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 and The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts (Amendment) Regulations 2001.
    .....

    Almost all contracts state that customer pays. But if they didn't, then you are correct.

    Ah......I was referencing this bit "The consumer is under no obligation to deliver the goods to the supplier except at the consumer's own premises and in pursuance of a written request by the supplier". Which I understood to mean that the consumer must make them available to be collected by the supplier from the place that they were delivered to.
    'Hello to Jason Isaacs'
  • cjwcjw Posts: 1,889
    Interestingly Epics terms under faulty goods breach the legislation as they state the consumer pays for return of faulty goods.

    Epic State;
    3. If your item is faulty please contact us immediately on 01885 410641 or email so that we can discuss the best course of action. If you subsequently need to return an item to us or to the manufacturer for rectification, please note that all warranty agreements are "return to base", and the buyer will be responsible for any associated postage or return costs.

    The regulations are clear however;
    Do I have to pay to return the goods?
    When consumers exercise their right to cancel they are under a duty to take reasonable care of the goods and to “restore” them to the supplier. The term “restore” does not permit the supplier to demand that the consumer send back or deliver the goods, but only that the goods are made available to the supplier for collection.

    The Regulations permit the supplier to include in the contract a term requiring the consumer to return the goods to the supplier at their own cost. The supplier may charge for the direct costs of recovering the goods if, on request, the consumer does not return them; this must not be more than the direct costs of recovery, such as postage or, for larger items, the cost of a van collection. Once the consumer has cancelled the order all money paid must be returned within 30 days of the date of cancellation.

    The business is not entitled to charge for recovery of the goods if the consumer also has a statutory right to cancel the contract under other legislation, (for example because they are defective)
    or if the term requiring the consumer to return the goods is an ‘‘unfair term’’ within the meaning of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 and The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts (Amendment) Regulations 2001.
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  • Also the right of the consumer to return the goods depends on the manner in which they bought them. If the OP went into Epic cycles and paid for them at the shop, even though the goods were subsequently delivered they are not covered by the distance selling regulations as the goods were not sold to them at a distance. However if bought entirely by mail order then they would have these rights.

    Whether it's worth going to all the agro of of cancelling your contract and returning the goods over a £25 repair is up to you.

    On the matter of Epic breaking the law by insisting on returning faulty goods at customers own cost, if the the fault appears outside of the 7 day cooling off period then they are entitled to insist on this. As a previous poster stated that is one of the risks of buying off the internet and one that should always be taken into consideration.
  • Also the right of the consumer to return the goods depends on the manner in which they bought them. If the OP went into Epic cycles and paid for them at the shop, even though the goods were subsequently delivered

    Yes - I paid for the bike at their premises.

    I know it's "only" £25 for the repair, but I'm angry that I paid a great deal of money (for me) and received a defective product. This has been made worse by Epic's complete lack of concern or willingness to help.

    Considering how happy they were to take my £3,000 from me, I had hoped that they would cover the £30 cost of a courier to make up for the dissatisfaction I feel. After all it's only 1% of the amount they made from me!
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 79,678
    I think if you buy a 3K bike then the service you recieve should be relative to any problems you encounter, it seems Epic in this instance are not acting appropriately, ie no good will at all.. Personally, I would return the bike to them, unrepaired, take the hit on the return postage and shop elsewhere, maybe a bit closer to home. A large distance from the retailer can be a big issue when problems arise. So, what is £25 against spending £3000, to then hopefully get a good reliable bike with no faults a bit closer to home ?

    Just my opinion. :wink:
  • cjwcjw Posts: 1,889
    stevie63 wrote:

    On the matter of Epic breaking the law by insisting on returning faulty goods at customers own cost, if the the fault appears outside of the 7 day cooling off period then they are entitled to insist on this. .

    Not true.
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  • cjw wrote:
    stevie63 wrote:

    On the matter of Epic breaking the law by insisting on returning faulty goods at customers own cost, if the the fault appears outside of the 7 day cooling off period then they are entitled to insist on this. .

    Not true.

    Can you provide evidence to back this up. Also note that the OP has admitted that they purchased the goods in store which means that they are not covered by the Distance selling Regulations. However I would agree that if someone had spent £3000 on a bike it would be good if the shop showed some goodwill to the customer by covering the repair at a local shop.
  • cjwcjw Posts: 1,889
    Agree that distance regs don't apply here.
    What should I do if the goods are faulty?
    The Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations 2000 give consumers an unconditional cancellation right, in addition to their rights under the Sale of Goods Legislation.

    Where a consumer claims goods are faulty after having had a reasonable time to examine them (which could be after the expiry of the cooling off period above) the consumer's rights under the Sale of Goods Act apply.
    The Act makes it clear that if the goods do not conform to contract and the consumer exercises his or her right to reject them, they can ask for their money back, providing they do so quickly. Alternatively, they can request repair and replacement or claim compensation. Please see the Sale of Goods Fact Sheet for further information.
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  • cjwcjw Posts: 1,889
    The 'reasonable time' clause is there because some faults may not appear in 7 days....
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  • kingrollokingrollo Posts: 3,148
    By way of comparison, I brought my bike from Henry Burton Cycles - in August. Ihave been getting a slight back pain. I told the shop - he said I could try (have\swap out)some compact bars and or shorter stem .....the cost to me.....zero ! Impressed ! - you bet - My bike cost £1400 - really when someone has spent £3k - they should do a £25 repair for nothing......and in probability it was incorrect set up !
  • alfabluealfablue Posts: 8,497
    stevie63 wrote:
    cjw wrote:
    stevie63 wrote:

    On the matter of Epic breaking the law by insisting on returning faulty goods at customers own cost, if the the fault appears outside of the 7 day cooling off period then they are entitled to insist on this. .

    Not true.

    Can you provide evidence to back this up. Also note that the OP has admitted that they purchased the goods in store which means that they are not covered by the Distance selling Regulations. However I would agree that if someone had spent £3000 on a bike it would be good if the shop showed some goodwill to the customer by covering the repair at a local shop.
    You are confounding the two bits of legislation. A seller cannot compel the buyer to pay for the cost of faulty goods (regardless of what they may put in their terms and conditions - some time ago CRC were forced to change their policy on this), this is separate from the distance selling regulations. You are correct that the distance selling regs do not apply for goods bought in store, but if the goods are faulty, even if it was an internet purchase, the distance selling regs is irrelevant.
  • alfablue wrote:
    stevie63 wrote:
    cjw wrote:
    stevie63 wrote:

    On the matter of Epic breaking the law by insisting on returning faulty goods at customers own cost, if the the fault appears outside of the 7 day cooling off period then they are entitled to insist on this. .

    Not true.

    Can you provide evidence to back this up. Also note that the OP has admitted that they purchased the goods in store which means that they are not covered by the Distance selling Regulations. However I would agree that if someone had spent £3000 on a bike it would be good if the shop showed some goodwill to the customer by covering the repair at a local shop.
    You are confounding the two bits of legislation. A seller cannot compel the buyer to pay for the cost of faulty goods (regardless of what they may put in their terms and conditions - some time ago CRC were forced to change their policy on this), this is separate from the distance selling regulations. You are correct that the distance selling regs do not apply for goods bought in store, but if the goods are faulty, even if it was an internet purchase, the distance selling regs is irrelevant.

    Taken directly from the CRC website:

    All goods purchased from CRC are coved by a full warranty. The duration of this warranty is at least 1 year but some manufacturers offer extended warranty. Generally speaking, warranties cover manufacturing faults and defects but do not cover damage caused by crashing, abuse, general wear and tear etc. If you feel that the product you have purchased from CRC has developed a fault then please contact us before returning goods as many problems may be solved without you incurring postage costs. If the goods need to be returned-

    Goods must be clean, not covered in muck and oil.
    Goods must be accompanied with Completed Returns Form
    Please be honest when dealing with us, we will try our best to resolve any problem you have as it is in our interest to have a happy customer! Unfortunately postage costs cannot be covered.

    You can see that that do indeed expect the customer to pay postage costs to return faulty goods. I'm not saying that it's fair for the customer to incur these costs just saying it's not illegal.
  • cjwcjw Posts: 1,889
    Sorry....

    Are you saying that because CRC has written something on their website (Ts&Cs) you believe that overrules primary legislation?
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  • cjw wrote:
    Sorry....

    Are you saying that because CRC has written something on their website (Ts&Cs) you believe that overrules primary legislation?

    No not at all, I just haven't been shown the legislation yet that states that the customer isn't responsible for the cost of returning goods to the supplier. I hope it does exist because then we might all feel more confident about making online purchases. Also I was responding to a previous comment that stated that CRC had changed their policy when clearly they haven't.
  • alfabluealfablue Posts: 8,497
    Sorry, but CRC can say it is okay to have 10 wives, it wouldn't make it legal. Some time ago I returned a faulty item to them, had to point out the error of their ways, and postage was refunded.

    If someone includes illegal terms in a contract, that contract cannot be binding, even if the other party agreed/signed.

    Anyway, its simple:

    You buy goods at a distance, don't like 'em, return within 7 days at your cost, get refund (restocking fees are not permitted).

    You buy goods, they are faulty, you have the right to cancel the contract, get a refund, the seller is responsible for collection.

    MTFU!
  • It's why I never buy from CRC...

    A business shows it's true colours when something goes wrong, it is at this time that they earn their reputation.

    £3k on a bike and the user has a fault on their first ride, as a business owner the decision is simple, repair it and save your reputation, especially since the problem is such a simple one to resolve.

    Just imagine what would have happened if they had, the OP would be on here saying how great the service was, now all we read is negative comments....
  • cjwcjw Posts: 1,889
    Sale of Goods Acts applies in the CRC case - not distance selling...

    Key Facts:
    • Wherever goods are bought they must "conform to contract". This means they must be as described, fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality (i.e. not inherently faulty at the time of sale).

    • Goods are of satisfactory quality if they reach the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking into account the price and any description.

    • Aspects of quality include fitness for purpose, freedom from minor defects, appearance and finish, durability and safety.

    • It is the seller, not the manufacturer, who is responsible if goods do not conform to contract.

    • If goods do not conform to contract at the time of sale, purchasers can request their money back "within a reasonable time". (This is not defined and will depend on circumstances)

    • For up to six years after purchase (five years from discovery in Scotland) purchasers can demand damages (which a court would equate to the cost of a repair or replacement).

    • A purchaser who is a consumer, i.e. is not buying in the course of a business, can alternatively request a repair or replacement.

    • If repair and replacement are not possible or too costly, then the consumer can seek a partial refund, if they have had some benefit from the good, or a full refund if the fault/s have meant they have enjoyed no benefit

    Then...

    I know I can demand my money back within a "reasonable time" but how long is that?
    The law does not specify a precise time as it will vary for most sales contracts as all the factors need to be taken into account to be fair to all sides. The pair of everyday shoes may only have a few days before the period expires but a pair of skis, purchased in a Summer Sale, may be allowed a longer period by a court.

    Q5. After the "reasonable time" has passed, what can I do?
    You may seek damages, which would be the amount of money necessary to have the goods repaired or replaced. Frequently retailers will themselves offer repair or replacement. But, if you are a consumer (not making the purchase in the course of a business) you have the statutory right to seek a repair or replacement as an alternative to seeking damages.

    The key bit overriding CRC is damages to the amount to have the goods repaired or replaced. It does become grey however if you have received benefit from the goods.


    http://www.berr.gov.uk/whatwedo/consume ... whatcanIdo
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  • cjwcjw Posts: 1,889
    Tempestas wrote:
    £3k on a bike and the user has a fault on their first ride, as a business owner the decision is simple, repair it and save your reputation, especially since the problem is such a simple one to resolve.

    100% Agree.
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  • VelonutterVelonutter Posts: 2,437 Lives Here
    alfablue wrote:
    ....Anyway, its simple:

    You buy goods at a distance, don't like 'em, return within 7 days at your cost, get refund (restocking fees are not permitted).

    You buy goods, they are faulty, you have the right to cancel the contract, get a refund, the seller is responsible for collection.

    MTFU!

    Yep summed up admirably, they can argue until they are blue in the face, this is the Law!
  • skinsonskinson Posts: 362
    Not a good idea to generalise from one incident - but also, no reason why a consumer should accept the "one off" bad incident. Most of the time Epic get a very good rep, but that doesn't mean this guy should put up and shut up, does it?

    Other shops have large numbers of bad customer experiences, and these people rightly complain.

    What is it with some people that we aren't supposed to say when things are bad or not right? In my work all hell breaks loose if errors are made, and we have to take the consequences. What is so special about a bike shop that they are deemed to be beyond criticism? What is the point of statutory rights for consumers, when so often they want to roll over and turn the other cheek?

    I was actually being sarcastic! Just like when everyone jumped On ribble for a couple of bad service incidents....
    Dave :?
  • top_bhoytop_bhoy Posts: 1,424
    I hope it was the senior shop manager who refused to cover the cost of return. If not, I'd go back and speak to this manager and see, once everythings explained, if an amicable resolution can be found to help get everyone out of this, relatively minor problem.
  • Is it possibly that they are charging carriage up front and will refund if the fault is genuine?

    A communications problem?
  • alfablue wrote:
    Anyway, its simple:

    You buy goods at a distance, don't like 'em, return within 7 days at your cost, get refund (restocking fees are not permitted).

    You buy goods, they are faulty, you have the right to cancel the contract, get a refund, the seller is responsible for collection.

    MTFU!

    I'm afraid you are wrong. This is taken from the Trading Standards website:

    Claiming a refund
    If goods are faulty and you wish to claim a full refund you must return the goods to the seller within a reasonable period of time,
    Note it says the onus is on you to return the goods.
    However I am not disputing that morally the retailer should just pay for the repair to be carried out at a LBS as a matter of goodwill.
  • Is it possibly that they are charging carriage up front and will refund if the fault is genuine?

    A communications problem?

    No - I asked this. It's up to me to fork out for courier costs irrespective of whether it's their fault or not.
  • cjwcjw Posts: 1,889
    No No No.....

    Consider if you had bought a fridge freezer.

    Now this is from DTis advice to Traders;
    Rejection of Goods
    Buyers can reject the goods and require
    their money back provided they complain
    within "a reasonable time" (usually a short
    period).
    The Sale of Goods Act does not define what
    amounts to a "reasonable time" but buyers
    have to be given a reasonable time to
    examine the goods to see if they were
    satisfactory. Ultimately, the matter can
    only be decided by a court after taking into
    account all the circumstances. An important
    factor might be that the buyer was not in
    a position to check the goods for a longer
    time after the sale than usual, because,
    for example, he was admitted to hospital
    immediately after he purchased them.
    Where a buyer is entitled to reject the
    goods, he must tell the retailer immediately.
    He is not obliged to send them back but
    must make them available for collection.
    However, most buyers would return goods
    they had themselves taken away to assist
    them convince the retailer their claim was
    legitimate and so speed things up.

    You need to make the goods available, however they note that for items you have collecteed the consumer may simply take the item back to speed up the process.

    http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file25486.pdf
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  • AggieboyAggieboy Posts: 3,996
    Bobtbuilder - I can appreciate how you feel but tbh if it was me I'd take it to the lbs, and then get out and ride. God knows how soon you'll get the bike back from Epic, even if resolved.

    That's my £25 worth :wink:
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  • alfabluealfablue Posts: 8,497
    skinson wrote:
    Not a good idea to generalise from one incident - but also, no reason why a consumer should accept the "one off" bad incident. Most of the time Epic get a very good rep, but that doesn't mean this guy should put up and shut up, does it?

    Other shops have large numbers of bad customer experiences, and these people rightly complain.

    What is it with some people that we aren't supposed to say when things are bad or not right? In my work all hell breaks loose if errors are made, and we have to take the consequences. What is so special about a bike shop that they are deemed to be beyond criticism? What is the point of statutory rights for consumers, when so often they want to roll over and turn the other cheek?

    I was actually being sarcastic! Just like when everyone jumped On ribble for a couple of bad service incidents....
    Dave :?
    Sorry for the rant, Dave, missed the humour :oops:
  • alfabluealfablue Posts: 8,497
    stevie63 wrote:
    alfablue wrote:
    Anyway, its simple:

    You buy goods at a distance, don't like 'em, return within 7 days at your cost, get refund (restocking fees are not permitted).

    You buy goods, they are faulty, you have the right to cancel the contract, get a refund, the seller is responsible for collection.

    MTFU!

    I'm afraid you are wrong. This is taken from the Trading Standards website:

    Claiming a refund
    If goods are faulty and you wish to claim a full refund you must return the goods to the seller within a reasonable period of time,
    Note it says the onus is on you to return the goods.
    However I am not disputing that morally the retailer should just pay for the repair to be carried out at a LBS as a matter of goodwill.
    The Trading Standards info is a lightweight version of the regulations that lacks precision, as CJW said:

    [/quote]The regulations are clear however;

    Quote:
    Do I have to pay to return the goods?
    When consumers exercise their right to cancel they are under a duty to take reasonable care of the goods and to “restore” them to the supplier. The term “restore” does not permit the supplier to demand that the consumer send back or deliver the goods, but only that the goods are made available to the supplier for collection.

    The Regulations permit the supplier to include in the contract a term requiring the consumer to return the goods to the supplier at their own cost. The supplier may charge for the direct costs of recovering the goods if, on request, the consumer does not return them; this must not be more than the direct costs of recovery, such as postage or, for larger items, the cost of a van collection. Once the consumer has cancelled the order all money paid must be returned within 30 days of the date of cancellation.

    The business is not entitled to charge for recovery of the goods if the consumer also has a statutory right to cancel the contract under other legislation, (for example because they are defective) or if the term requiring the consumer to return the goods is an ‘‘unfair term’’ within the meaning of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 and The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts (Amendment) Regulations 2001. [/quote]
  • juankerrjuankerr Posts: 1,099
    Yes, it's censored service, but I'd take it to the LBS, then send Epic a strongly written letter of complaint along with the bill.

    Unless of course you don't value the time it will take you to box it up, ship it, wait patiently for it to be fixed, and then wait in the the courier.
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