Stage 17 - Bourg-Saint-Maurice - Le Grand-Bornand - SPOILER

Coriander

Earthbound wrote:

thamacdaddy wrote:

Further to that armstrong has posted

Getting lots of question why AC attacked and dropped Kloden. I still haven't figured it out either. Oh well.

Dear Lance, It's cos he's team leader, it's cos he's yellow jersey, it's cos he can.

If I were you, I'd be inclined to open a Twitter account and send that to him.

gabriel959

That is why I like Alberto, no fricking crappy Twitter account.

Coriander

gabriel959 wrote:

That is why I like Alberto, no fricking crappy Twitter account.

+1

JC.152

yeh i prefer contadors way of doing it he just said early on in tour that he was getting a bit bored of the Astana rivalry build up and then once it kicked off in the mountains he just toook control without any of this twitter stirrin that the others do a bit

blazing_saddles

I wonder what Armstrong's VAM is, when he's twittering at altitude?
He is clearly using Levi's and Hoghead's accounts to draft in.

timoid.

Has Armstrong actually helped Contador at any stage?

He's like that dame from Sunset Boulevard. "I am big, its the race that got small". He'll never play second fiddle graciously

jackhammer111 - banned

I read this somewhere else but it pretty much sums up what I saw.

"Alberto may be the strongest rider, but it's clear he still has a lot to learn.

To watch him go off the front while two-on-two with the Schlecks, taking time from Wiggo who was with the ever-faithful Lance, and drop Kloden, Johan must have had a heart attack!

He expended energy needlessly ahead of the ITT, sped up Andy and Frank, who put time into Lance and Kloden and took 2nd and 3rd respectively (better positions for the ITT too)."

rockmount

jackhammer111 wrote:

I read this somewhere else but it pretty much sums up what I saw.

"Alberto may be the strongest rider, but it's clear he still has a lot to learn.

To watch him go off the front while two-on-two with the Schlecks, taking time from Wiggo who was with the ever-faithful Lance, and drop Kloden, Johan must have had a heart attack!

He expended energy needlessly ahead of the ITT, sped up Andy and Frank, who put time into Lance and Kloden and took 2nd and 3rd respectively (better positions for the ITT too)."

+1 I guess some peoples judgement is clouded by irrational hatred, either that or the truth is just too bitter a pill to swallow.

iainf72

Wait a minute here.

Contador talked to Kloden twice. He said later he asked Kloden if he was ok for attack and Kloden said yes.

Contador attacks the Schlecks, gets a good gap and looks back. See's Kloden isn't there and practically stops pedalling. Schlecks catch up and Alberto looks behind looking concerned.

So he'd planned to get away with Kloden and gift the stage to him but Kloden didn't have the legs. I honestly can't see what the debate was about. Armstrong distanced Wiggins and is not far off the podium behind at least one very poor TT rider. Kloden rode his backside off for Contador in Italy last year, and while he may be many things, he's definately professional

On a personal level, I remember a famous 1-2-3 from an team in an important race and it makes me feel a bit queasy to this day.

SpaceJunk

A lot of people were suggesting pre-tour that Alberto wouldn't have the mental strength to be able to ride in the same team as LA, that LA would work him over with his mind games, and Alberto would become a cycling paranoia, that Lance would win the Tour and Contador just crumbles etc etc etc

Well, the past week has shown that Alberto is up to the task.

You might not agree with his tactics, but hey, as a 7 time winner has shown - you need to have a bit of mongrel, be a ruthless bastard - and Alberto has proven himself that.

I was (and I still am hoping) for a win by Andy, but hats off to Alberto. He certainly deserves his second TdF (and 4th GT) win.

Whilst some have used the media and the internet to get their message across, Alberto has let his legs do the talking.

Kléber

iainf72 wrote:

I honestly can't see what the debate was about.

Because the "debate" was set by Armstrong and Leipheimer via Twitter.

It seems Armstrong barely had time to climb aboard the team bus before he started questioning the team tactics, which had been agreed:
- before the stage at the rider briefing
- via race radio with Bruyneel during the stage, including on the Colombiere
- in person betweem Kloeden and Contador on the Colombiere

Similarly Leipheimer, stuck at home with a broken wrist, managed to type messages one handed despite not having a clue what the Astana plans were for the day.

Instant messaging is great but it also seems to allow some to instantly put their foot in their mouths.

Anonymous

Contador has really impressed me with his ability to cope with the pressure and media and let his Professional Bike Riding* do the talking.




*Copyright SBT (Sherwen B0ll0cks Talk) 2009.

SpaceJunk

iainf72 wrote:

Wait a minute here.

Contador talked to Kloden twice. He said later he asked Kloden if he was ok for attack and Kloden said yes.

Contador attacks the Schlecks, gets a good gap and looks back. See's Kloden isn't there and practically stops pedalling. Schlecks catch up and Alberto looks behind looking concerned.

So he'd planned to get away with Kloden and gift the stage to him but Kloden didn't have the legs. I honestly can't see what the debate was about. Armstrong distanced Wiggins and is not far off the podium behind at least one very poor TT rider. Kloden rode his backside off for Contador in Italy last year, and while he may be many things, he's definately professional

On a personal level, I remember a famous 1-2-3 from an team in an important race and it makes me feel a bit queasy to this day.

Would that be the team who had a consultant on their books that suggested that orange juice is just as harmful as EPO? :?

blazing_saddles

rockmount wrote:

+1 I guess some peoples judgement is clouded by irrational hatred, either that or the truth is just too bitter a pill to swallow.

Well, this time you absolutely must be wrong, as all the hate is coming in the direction of Contador, from Armstrong fans.

Just before attacking, Contador had a long chat to Kloden, with head nodding and hand gestures etc.
So I would assume they were discussing this move. That, or the question of whether the Schlecks would attack again before the summit - a distinct probability.

If Kloden had been able to follow Contador, both would be sitting podium pretty, now and the only person to suffer would be Lance.
He couldn't, that's why Contador sat up and almost waited, refusing to work.
All it did, was prove what I had suspected since the final kms of the Romme. That Kloden was hanging by a thread, even then.

The next push from either Schleck, was his end, in anycase.

Bruyneel said that Contador should not have attacked and Astana would be holding spots 1, 2 and 3.
Well, that's more Hogwash, isn't it? Lance would still have finished over 2 minutes down on Andy Schleck and in 4th.

So, if the attack had worked, Astana would have sewn up 2 podium spots. Without the attack, they would still be in a dogfight for that second spot, with very similar time gaps to what we eventually had.

Example, Wiggins: Worn down, a spent force and wasted, by the time Lance left him on the Colombieres, right?

Well, from the point where Kloden blew, he still managed to take back 10 seconds a km on the German.

If that doesn't tell you about Freiburg's finest ability to hang on for the remainder of the climb and decent, well.....

Lance, even with Vince Nibs demon decending, still lost a futher 15 seconds on that downhill. All the Schleck's work.

Kloden was a dead man pedalling.

So, RMount, I agree with your words. Now apply them to yourself and Jack.

knedlicky

Kléber wrote:

It seems Armstrong barely had time to climb aboard the team bus before he started questioning the team tactics, which had been agreed

LA ought to look at his own tactics now and again - I couldn’t the point of him trying to break away just 1 km short of the Col de Romme summit.

He also ought to give Nibali a big thank-you.
On the Colombiere descent it’s true LA was gaining constantly on ‘Hilde’ but only initially was he gaining on the front trio (and that probably only because the Schlecks slowed down at one point to chat with AC). As the descent went on, he started to lose ground against them and it was only when Nibali appeared to help, did he start to again cut back his deficit to the front trio.

SpaceJunk

Just heard a post stage interview with Frank Schleck.

While he was speaking about Alberto Contador, Frank said:

"and he helped me quite a lot in the last few kilometers, and he helped me win the stage. So yes, I hope I can repay the effort and make him win."

It sounded very controversial until I realised that he said Andy (or did he??)

ednwireland

knedlicky wrote:

Kléber wrote:

It seems Armstrong barely had time to climb aboard the team bus before he started questioning the team tactics, which had been agreed

LA ought to look at his own tactics now and again - I couldn’t the point of him trying to break away just 1 km short of the Col de Romme summit.

.

its cos he's worked out he cant go at that pace for the full climb anymore he can go into the red for a km and then recover on the last climb but cant match the pace of the front three any more

knedlicky

ednwireland wrote:

knedlicky wrote:

Kléber wrote:

It seems Armstrong barely had time to climb aboard the team bus before he started questioning the team tactics, which had been agreed

LA ought to look at his own tactics now and again - I couldn’t the point of him trying to break away just 1 km short of the Col de Romme summit. .

its cos he's worked out he cant go at that pace for the full climb anymore he can go into the red for a km and then recover on the last climb but cant match the pace of the front three any more

What I meant was that, had he broken free that late in the Romme climb, he would have only been caught on the descent or at the beginning of the Colombiere climb.

Coriander

Did Thor win most combatative rider yesterday? I assume he did, but can't find confirmation on the letour.fr website.

DaveyL

Yes, it's listed on cyclinews.com

http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/96th-t ... 19/results

Above the team timings and below young rider points

secretsqirrel

iainf72 wrote:

Wait a minute here.

Contador talked to Kloden twice. He said later he asked Kloden if he was ok for attack and Kloden said yes.

Contador attacks the Schlecks, gets a good gap and looks back. See's Kloden isn't there and practically stops pedalling. Schlecks catch up and Alberto looks behind looking concerned.

So he'd planned to get away with Kloden and gift the stage to him but Kloden didn't have the legs. I honestly can't see what the debate was about. Armstrong distanced Wiggins and is not far off the podium behind at least one very poor TT rider. Kloden rode his backside off for Contador in Italy last year, and while he may be many things, he's definately professional

+1 Iainf

That sounds like an outbreak of sanity & reason.

Mettan

What was the total amount of ascent on this stage? - 18,000 - 20,000 ft, or more ?

Kléber

If I was Contador, I would have thrown team tactics out of the window, I would have aimed to crush Armstrong and I would have destroyed Kloeden on the Colombiere.

But Contador's nicer than me, he's been a model of modesty and professionalism. It's been odd that Armstrong and others sought to question Contador's loyalty yesterday when they are the ones who have been undermining him throughout the season.

secretsqirrel

Kléber wrote:

If I was Contador, I would have thrown team tactics out of the window, I would have aimed to crush Armstrong and I would have destroyed Kloeden on the Colombiere.

But Contador's nicer than me, he's been a model of modesty and professionalism. It's been odd that Armstrong and others sought to question Contador's loyalty yesterday when they are the ones who have been undermining him throughout the season.

He did crush Kloden, but didn't mean to. Wherever Bertie rides, I suspect he will want to take Klodi with him.

jackhammer111 - banned

Kléber wrote:

If I was Contador, I would have thrown team tactics out of the window, I would have aimed to crush Armstrong and I would have destroyed Kloeden on the Colombiere.

But Contador's nicer than me, he's been a model of modesty and professionalism. It's been odd that Armstrong and others sought to question Contador's loyalty yesterday when they are the ones who have been undermining him throughout the season.

and if you did that you'd end up with an angry DS, no respect from your teammates, and misery for weeks on the team bus. Teams implode that way.

No even Alberto wins the tour on his own.

Kléber

jackhammer111 wrote:

an angry DS, no respect from your teammates, and misery for weeks on the team bus. Teams implode that way.

You've just described what Contador has been putting up with since the winter

jackhammer111 - banned

Kléber wrote:

jackhammer111 wrote:

an angry DS, no respect from your teammates, and misery for weeks on the team bus. Teams implode that way.

You've just described what Contador has been putting up with since the winter

Astana has made this a very easy ride for him.
Are you watching the same race I have? What team has control all the racing and let him sit Lances wheel day after day?
And of course the TTT didn't mean a thing.

Kléber

Err, I'm not saying the TTT is invalid, re-read my posts.

Rather I'm simply saying that Contador has had to put up with a lot of destabilising influences, whether it the Tour - it took two weeks of racing for Armstrong to publically commit himself to riding for Contador - or even since Armstrong's comeback was announced.

I don't understand why Armstrong and Bruyneel have worked so hard to drive the rider to a rival team?

dennisn

Kléber wrote:

jackhammer111 wrote:

an angry DS, no respect from your teammates, and misery for weeks on the team bus. Teams implode that way.

You've just described what Contador has been putting up with since the winter

Could it be that you guys are making a bit too much of all of this. I work for a small company and there are people who don't get along with one and another. Tempers even flare on occasion, but we all seem to get the work done. Mistakes are made by everyone. Although admitted by very few. I have never worked in anything remotely like a perfect job. Some days things go so smoothly that I'm amazed. Other days I find my brain screaming at just about everyone. I really don't see how you can expect a cycling
team, or any other "team" for that matter, to not have the same "human problems"(for lack of better words).

Kléber

Sure Dennis but I bet you don't go home and then start twittering and blogging things to undermine your colleagues, I also suspect you don't question their performances during a press conference.