South Africa rape survey

Harry B
Harry B Posts: 1,239
edited June 2009 in The bottom bracket
From he BBC website:

"One in four South African men questioned in a survey said they had raped someone, and nearly half of them admitted more than one attack.

The study, by the country's Medical Research Council, also found three out of four who admitted rape had attacked for the first time during their teens.

It said practices such as gang rape were common because they were considered a form of male bonding. " :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
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Comments

  • teagar
    teagar Posts: 2,100
    Harry B wrote:
    From he BBC website:

    "One in four South African men questioned in a survey said they had raped someone, and nearly half of them admitted more than one attack.

    The study, by the country's Medical Research Council, also found three out of four who admitted rape had attacked for the first time during their teens.

    It said practices such as gang rape were common because they were considered a form of male bonding. " :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

    Helps if you give the rest of the article, rather than just the shocking bits.

    "I don't think it's cultural per se; I think it has to do with how a lot of us men worldwide were raised. The issues of dominance against women, issues of inequality, are pervasive and you find them throughout the world."

    He's spot on. There's a rapist lurking inside everyone. Just there is a powerful authority to prevent such occurances...

    We all know what happens in war, when that authority disappears.
    Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.
  • nicensleazy
    nicensleazy Posts: 2,310
    Funny, I was listening to this subject on BBC radio 4 a few weeks ago. Apparently, if you are a lesbian, there is a high chance you will become a victim of rape, especially in a town ship. A lot the the males think that lesbians are possessed by an evil spirt and the actual rape will free the woman. They are going around the town-ships to educate people about this and its actually a freedom of choice and not evil spirtis.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,665
    I've been in 2 wars and haven't raped anyone. Sweeping generalisations are a bit damaging and misleading.
  • verylonglegs
    verylonglegs Posts: 4,023
    teagar wrote:

    He's spot on. There's a rapist lurking inside everyone. Just there is a powerful authority to prevent such occurances...

    Im sorry but speak for yourself on this one.
  • Lysander
    Lysander Posts: 349
    I'm with verylonglegs. There is no rapist lurking inside me.
  • bill57
    bill57 Posts: 454
    Lysander wrote:
    I'm with verylonglegs. There is no rapist lurking inside me.

    Ditto. Anybody subscribing to teagar's opinion needs psychiatric help or locking up.
  • Stewie Griffin
    Stewie Griffin Posts: 4,330
    Nor me, went without it for quite a while a few years ago and did consider popping over to Amsterdam and paying a stunner for her time and effort, but never did :lol: . Rape never once crossed my mind :shock: .
  • Infamous
    Infamous Posts: 1,130
    They were asking for it.
  • nolf
    nolf Posts: 1,287
    Yes but one would assume you were under the authority of someone and that you retained your discipline throughout. Thats what a professional soldier should do. But even in a professional army, when discipline breaks down horrendous acts can be committed.

    It seems reasonable to blame a lot of rapes on the breakdown in authority.
    "I hold it true, what'er befall;
    I feel it, when I sorrow most;
    'Tis better to have loved and lost;
    Than never to have loved at all."

    Alfred Tennyson
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    They make a mention of children towards the end of the article. The background to that is farily shocking. There is a story put out by "tradtional healers" that if you have HIV, the way to cure it is to have sex with a virgin....

    And how to you make sure someone is a virgin?

    http://www.scienceinafrica.co.za/2002/april/virgin.htm
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • GavH
    GavH Posts: 933
    No rapist living inside of me, of that I'm pretty certain. As for teagars random bollox about war removing any authority, honestly, I've heard some nonesense in my time but that's a classic. When I went to war (and I'm going back in 6 weeks time) there must have been some sort of authority preventing me and every single other soldier I knew from raping.

    Honestly, utter sh1te, but in fairness, just the type of sh1te he spouts quite routinely just to get a reaction. Sad thing is it works.
  • redddraggon
    redddraggon Posts: 10,862
    GavH wrote:
    No rapist living inside of me, of that I'm pretty certain. As for teagars random bollox about war removing any authority, honestly, I've heard some nonesense in my time but that's a classic. When I went to war (and I'm going back in 6 weeks time) there must have been some sort of authority preventing me and every single other soldier I knew from raping.

    Honestly, utter sh1te, but in fairness, just the type of sh1te he spouts quite routinely just to get a reaction. Sad thing is it works.

    The days of storming breaches like at Ciudad Rodrigo and Badajoz are long gone now, so I can't imagine the British Army suffering such large scale indiscipline again. But what about the allegations about the British soldiers in Kenya?
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  • mgcycleguy
    mgcycleguy Posts: 292
    ...all bodes well for the World Cup ! :!:
  • GavH
    GavH Posts: 933
    But what about the allegations about the British soldiers in Kenya?

    A fair comment but these allegations, levied against amongst others the uber-disciplined Gurkhas have since been proven to be unfounded. They were instigated by a British solicitor called Martyn Day who brought the allegations, promising those involved about £10,000,000 of British taxpayers (our!) money that he reckoned the MoD would pay out in compensation. Every one of the claims made were proven to be fake and the actual police documentation fake also. When this approach didn't work, they turned to injuries apparantly caused by unexploded ordnance. More live ordnance is fired in Wales, Otterburn and numerous other places in the UK, not to mention other training areas around the world. Funny how the claims in Kenya were somehow a tad excessive in their number in this particular respect. In short, it was all about defrauding the UK taxpayer. I cannot comment on how many Kenyan women have since been elected to the UK parliament as I haven't got that data to hand... :wink:
  • GavH
    GavH Posts: 933
    But what about the allegations about the British soldiers in Kenya?

    A fair comment but these allegations, levied against amongst others the uber-disciplined Gurkhas have since been proven to be unfounded. They were instigated by a British solicitor called Martyn Day who brought the allegations, promising those involved about £10,000,000 of British taxpayers (our!) money that he reckoned the MoD would pay out in compensation. Every one of the claims made were proven to be fake and the actual police documentation fake also. When this approach didn't work, they turned to injuries apparantly caused by unexploded ordnance. More live ordnance is fired in Wales, Otterburn and numerous other places in the UK, not to mention other training areas around the world. Funny how the claims in Kenya were somehow a tad excessive in their number in this particular respect. In short, it was all about defrauding the UK taxpayer. I cannot comment on how many Kenyan women have since been elected to the UK parliament as I haven't got that data to hand... :wink:
  • redddraggon
    redddraggon Posts: 10,862
    GavH wrote:
    But what about the allegations about the British soldiers in Kenya?

    A fair comment but these allegations, levied against amongst others the uber-disciplined Gurkhas have since been proven to be unfounded. They were instigated by a British solicitor called Martyn Day who brought the allegations, promising those involved about £10,000,000 of British taxpayers (our!) money that he reckoned the MoD would pay out in compensation. Every one of the claims made were proven to be fake and the actual police documentation fake also. When this approach didn't work, they turned to injuries apparantly caused by unexploded ordnance. More live ordnance is fired in Wales, Otterburn and numerous other places in the UK, not to mention other training areas around the world. Funny how the claims in Kenya were somehow a tad excessive in their number in this particular respect. In short, it was all about defrauding the UK taxpayer. I cannot comment on how many Kenyan women have since been elected to the UK parliament as I haven't got that data to hand... :wink:

    Ahaha, now I remember - I forget about that, could only remember the allegations - and they were the only "allegations" of such things that came to mind since Cuidad Rodrigo and Badajoz, Wellington was quite strict after those sieges from what I remember of my history.
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  • Aggieboy
    Aggieboy Posts: 3,996
    teagar wrote:
    He's spot on. There's a rapist lurking inside everyone. Just there is a powerful authority to prevent such occurances...

    We all know what happens in war, when that authority disappears.

    No. A powerful morality that all decent people have. Do you really need authority to tell right from wrong? You're an idiot.
    "There's a shortage of perfect breasts in this world, t'would be a pity to damage yours."
  • Red Rock
    Red Rock Posts: 517
    teagar wrote:
    There's a rapist lurking inside everyone. Just there is a powerful authority to prevent such occurances...

    There's no rapist lurking inside of me, and if 'a powerful authority' is the only reason you haven't yet (I'm assuming) raped someone then you need to seek help before you do.

    Red Rock
  • finchy
    finchy Posts: 6,686
    Does this mean that teagar's a wannabe rapist? :shock:

    Now I understand why he was defending post-modernism a few weeks ago....

    Seriously though teagar, you know why sex offenders have to be separated from other prisoners? It's cos even other criminals hate rapists.
  • STEFANOS4784
    STEFANOS4784 Posts: 4,109
    I get so nervouse around women i don't know i sometimes feel like I'M guna be raped.....Maybe slight exageration, but seriously teagar, get some help :P

    (Bet you wish you never typed that now) :wink:
  • STEFANOS4784
    STEFANOS4784 Posts: 4,109
    teagar wrote:
    "I don't think it's cultural per se; I think it has to do with how a lot of us men worldwide were raised..

    I think this may have some baring, my mother was usually the boss and my dad quite quiet :?

    Ah well................
  • nolf
    nolf Posts: 1,287
    Hate to point this out but if we look at more modern armed conflicts then we can still see widespread rape being committed.

    World war 2 for example. In the march across Germany by American and British allied forces, there was widespread rape and punitive execution of German POW's and civilians. I have studied the period fairly extensively, and whilst we definitely weren't as bad as the germans or the russians, it's nieive to think these things weren't happening. And it wasn't a tiny vocal minority either!

    Of course this is not to mention the rape campaign perpetuated by the Russians across all of Germany. They had the stated aim of raping every woman that they came across. Did all of the Russian troops suddenly lose their sense of morality, or was it because the higher command took an extremely lenient view of such actions? Or maybe Russians do not have a sense of morality?

    i would argue that many people would not consider themselves capable of such an act, but the extreme pressures and horrific violence that war produces, changes their opinions somewhat. If all your buddies have just been killed by some Nazis from a nearby house, you're gonna be pretty pissed off when you get to the civilians who ardently retain their loyalty to Hitler.

    Also Gav H, not sure where you are going to war, but currently the UK is only involved in peacekeeping. Whilst I retain an incredible respect for any man willing to risk his life for their country, we are not in a war. A country attempting to reconstruct itself is very different from a country gripped by the ravages of war, with no central government.
    "I hold it true, what'er befall;
    I feel it, when I sorrow most;
    'Tis better to have loved and lost;
    Than never to have loved at all."

    Alfred Tennyson
  • redddraggon
    redddraggon Posts: 10,862
    nolf wrote:
    Also Gav H, not sure where you are going to war, but currently the UK is only involved in peacekeeping.

    Afghanistan peacekeeping? I'm not sure about that, there's definite territories held by the Taliban that our forces are trying reclaim. I wouldn't call that peacekeeping.
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  • GavH
    GavH Posts: 933
    nolf wrote:
    Also Gav H, not sure where you are going to war, but currently the UK is only involved in peacekeeping. Whilst I retain an incredible respect for any man willing to risk his life for their country, we are not in a war. A country attempting to reconstruct itself is very different from a country gripped by the ravages of war, with no central government.

    You've not been to Helmand Province in southern Afghanistan lately have you? I can assure you that there is little peace to be kept out there. As an army we are formally on a campaign footing in Afghan. You are sadly quite mistaken about the nature of the conflict and the role the British Army is performing. We are averaging one fatality a week and one traumatic amputee a day. Sadly, another bloke from the Welsh Guards has been killed yesterday. So I'd ask you, where is the peace? Perhaps rather than trying to be pedantic you could be a little more respectful to the sacrifices you apparantly have an 'incredible respect for'. Sorry if this sounds a bit too much of a rant to others, but I seriously cannot believe that someone thinks our role in Afghanistan is a peacekeeping mission. Our role in Cyprus along the Green Line with the UN is a peacekeeping mission. I've done that too - QUITE different from fixing bayonets, firing missiles and dropping bombs in order to kill an enemy which is incredibly well organised, innovative, well trained and equipped and stupidly brave.
  • COVEC
    COVEC Posts: 213
    GavH,

    You are wasting you breath, it requires a very enlightened lay person to even begin to grasp the realities of modern conflict and in particular the COIN role. Those that draw comparison to WWII are deluded and those who do so from reading books on the subject, even more so.

    Keep your head down
    COVEC
  • Aggieboy
    Aggieboy Posts: 3,996
    Off topic, but my best wishes and good luck to any of our Armed Forces on here. Regardless of the debate on whether you should/shouldn't be somewhere, you all deserve our respect and to be kept safe.
    "There's a shortage of perfect breasts in this world, t'would be a pity to damage yours."
  • teagar
    teagar Posts: 2,100
    Aggieboy wrote:
    teagar wrote:
    He's spot on. There's a rapist lurking inside everyone. Just there is a powerful authority to prevent such occurances...

    We all know what happens in war, when that authority disappears.

    No. A powerful morality that all decent people have. Do you really need authority to tell right from wrong? You're an idiot.

    Sorry, I think you've all missed the point somewhat.

    By saying that it's all down to the individual and self restraint, you're implying that people in South Africa have a higher natural propensity to rape.... :?

    Clearly bollocks.

    When I talk about rape in war, I wasn't particularly refering to soldiers, but, I guess everyone enjoys being offended.


    There are plenty of academic articles on the subject of rape, and of those I've read for my second year compulsary early modern module, the number of rapes that occur were more or less directly linked to the level of authority there was in a given area.

    Hence, anarchic areas (such as areas caught up in warfare), tend to have lots more.

    Given South Africa's weak government and weak policing force, this all makes sense.

    My point was that everyone is equal. It's very easy to draw a conclusion from that article that it a south african problem, but it is not. It's a global problem, since it's human, not a geographical or national, phenomenon.

    Anyway, havn't you heard of a moral authority?

    The authority is ingrained, it is present for your entire experience as a human, it is the discourse. That's why you instinctively, like myself by the way (cheers for accusing me of being a rapist!), don't like it.

    Everyone's equal, so you need to look at reasons beyond nationality or race.

    Perhaps I should apologise for not trying to label south africans as rapists or that they have a higher natural propensity to rape than others. Oh wait, you know what, I won't!

    Why not educate yourself and read some Foucault before you call me an idiot. Then you might have some ideas beyond you own, little tiny personal experience.
    Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.
  • Lysander
    Lysander Posts: 349
    GavH what regiment are you in? Good luck if your having to go back to Afganistan you have my respect. This is despite what you called me in the past!
  • Tom Butcher
    Tom Butcher Posts: 3,830
    Teagar has a point - that human beings are capable of barbaric acts and history tells us that some situations can lead far more people to commit such acts than we might otherwise expect. That doesn't mean there is a rapist inside all of us - it just means that if we lived and grew up in the same circumstances as some of these South Africans we might have done as they have done.

    it's a hard life if you don't weaken.
  • nolf
    nolf Posts: 1,287
    GavH wrote:
    nolf wrote:
    Also Gav H, not sure where you are going to war, but currently the UK is only involved in peacekeeping. Whilst I retain an incredible respect for any man willing to risk his life for their country, we are not in a war. A country attempting to reconstruct itself is very different from a country gripped by the ravages of war, with no central government.

    You've not been to Helmand Province in southern Afghanistan lately have you? I can assure you that there is little peace to be kept out there. As an army we are formally on a campaign footing in Afghan. You are sadly quite mistaken about the nature of the conflict and the role the British Army is performing. We are averaging one fatality a week and one traumatic amputee a day. Sadly, another bloke from the Welsh Guards has been killed yesterday. So I'd ask you, where is the peace? Perhaps rather than trying to be pedantic you could be a little more respectful to the sacrifices you apparantly have an 'incredible respect for'. Sorry if this sounds a bit too much of a rant to others, but I seriously cannot believe that someone thinks our role in Afghanistan is a peacekeeping mission. Our role in Cyprus along the Green Line with the UN is a peacekeeping mission. I've done that too - QUITE different from fixing bayonets, firing missiles and dropping bombs in order to kill an enemy which is incredibly well organised, innovative, well trained and equipped and stupidly brave.

    It is very violent, and I never said peace keeping wasn't extremely dangerous, or could put you in combat situations, or even war like situations, but it's not the same as a war. I would define a war as a "continuation of policy by other means" as enacted by nation states. Therefore I would say you cannot have a war against terrorism unless it is state sanctioned, as in the end it is peacekeeping.

    But to take an example, were we at war in Northern Ireland? That was an extremely hostile environment with a well organised and ingenious enemy, well equipped and loyal to their beliefs with considerable backing from foreign governments.

    My point was not to argue over whether Afghanistan is dangerous, but to point out that widespread violence and a break down in social structure and discipline, leads to more rapes and violence than a normal society. That much seems obvious.
    As stated by Teagear, and Tom Butcher, history has shown countless times that it is true.
    "I hold it true, what'er befall;
    I feel it, when I sorrow most;
    'Tis better to have loved and lost;
    Than never to have loved at all."

    Alfred Tennyson