Lower saddle equals knee pain?

bice
bice Posts: 772
edited June 2009 in Road beginners
I began reading some posts about being fitted for your bike - which I don't believe in at amateur level, I'm afraid - and then made further research.

I just thought that my saddle might be a bit high - this being the main reason for riding discomfort (provided you have bought the right sized frame, it appears). I also have a damaged left hip from a horse riding injury of years ago, so I thought lower saddle would mean less movement in the saddle and be better.

So I lowered them on both road and commuter (a sort of hybrid). I don't think I used the road bike to make any difference, but I now have a very slight knee pain. So I have raised the saddle about 1.5cms and hopefully it will ease off. It's strange as my commute is only 6 miles each way, yet the pain certainly came on while using the commuter.

It must be the sudden change in height, and different use of muscles.

Comments

  • FatLarry
    FatLarry Posts: 209
    I began reading some posts about being fitted for your bike - which I don't believe in

    Yep, why pay a few quid to get your bike properly set up in the first place when you can do it yourself for free and all it takes is a lot of guesswork, fiddling, pain and discomfort in the meantime. :?
  • bice
    bice Posts: 772
    Yep, why pay a few quid to get your bike properly set up in the first place when you can do it yourself for free and all it takes is a lot of guesswork, fiddling, pain and discomfort in the meantime

    ... Probably because the guy giving the advice is usually a bike salesman; is almost certainly male; in 20s or 30s ... and is absolutely clueless about your body's requirements or peculiarities (such as previous injuries).

    The 'expertise' of many bike fitters is dubious and must be closely scrutinised and the essential principles are best learned for yourself. My bikes were set up fine - within the parameters a bike fitter would recognise. It was a conservative adjustment - lowering the seat - that seems to have caused knee pain.
  • jgsi
    jgsi Posts: 5,062
    edited June 2009
    bice wrote:
    So I lowered them on both road and commuter (a sort of hybrid). I don't think I used the road bike to make any difference, but I now have a very slight knee pain. .

    Wrong seat height too low or too high.. most I see have it too low but its funny seeing the ones too high with toes pointing down all the time...

    anyways if you want to make your cycling more of a chore than it is already then carry doing what you are doing....

    you can always Google for local cycling coaches tho....whose advice and knowledge is FAR in advance of your perception of those professionals who love the sport. They usually havent spent years of coaching with their knees hitting their chins as they pedal.
  • Monty Dog
    Monty Dog Posts: 20,614
    The problem with a too-high saddle position is that you loose power at the bottom of the pedal stroke and can lead to inflammation of the tendons behind the knee due to hyper-extension. Having too-low a saddle is generally worse as it can exaggerate any knee tracking problems i.e. due to excessive side-to-side movement.
    I often see 'experienced' cyclists with fairly fundamental position problems often with a saddle that is too high - your LBS has experience of fitting hundreds if not thousands or cyclists so why not take the benefit of their experience? You contradict youself in that you were unaware that lowering a saddle can cause knee problems
    Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..
  • Gav2000
    Gav2000 Posts: 408
    There's some info about this on the Sheldon Brown site http://www.sheldonbrown.com/saddles.html#height

    and here http://www.jimlangley.net/crank/bikefitchart.html

    Gav.
    Gav2000

    Like a streak of lightnin' flashin' cross the sky,
    Like the swiftest arrow whizzin' from a bow,
    Like a mighty cannonball he seems to fly.
    You'll hear about him ever'where you go.
  • Gav2000
    Gav2000 Posts: 408
    There's some info about this on the Sheldon Brown site http://www.sheldonbrown.com/saddles.html#height

    and here http://www.jimlangley.net/crank/bikefitchart.html

    Gav.
    Gav2000

    Like a streak of lightnin' flashin' cross the sky,
    Like the swiftest arrow whizzin' from a bow,
    Like a mighty cannonball he seems to fly.
    You'll hear about him ever'where you go.
  • bice
    bice Posts: 772
    Monty Dog

    I think the most damaging risk of having the saddle too high is likely to be to the hips. Obviously, having the saddle lower is going to make greater demands on different muscles in the leg.

    I doubt either of the positions I have set the saddle can be definitively declared correct or not: I was used to one height for years and changed it, resulting in mild strain (although over very short, unstrenuous distance).

    My road bike has given me no trouble, yet every bit of it - frame, stem, saddle - I assembled myself so I must be doing something right.

    Sizing is something you have to sort yourself - to start with, to deter retailers from trying to flog you an entirely wrong sized frame, as appears to have happened to quite a few people on this forum.
  • keef66
    keef66 Posts: 13,123
    Most mornings as I drive downhill from the house I see a bloke on a Giant going up. He has a cadence of about 15 rpm, and his knees stick out sideways from the bike at about 45 degrees. My guess is he could raise the saddle by about a foot and as a result go twice as fast, but I'm not going to flag him down and suggest it.
  • jgsi
    jgsi Posts: 5,062
    I beginning not to understand your issue here...
    You have put this in the Beginners section, but you state you have built your own bike..

    You say 1 bike gives no prob, the other does...

    You dont seem to be taking on board the most fundamental, that an ill fitting bike will lead to problems when used more than the odd shop for a loaf of bread.

    A decent LBS will advise correct frame size for your build.

    If you dont want to listen then why raise the issue in the 1st place?
  • bice
    bice Posts: 772
    Actually, there was quite a lot of useful stuff here and thanks for the Sheldon link ... but a bland 'go to an LBS' or some other size guru doesn't do it for me.

    Thinking about it, my observation is that a small change in saddle height from what I am used to caused discomfort. But I doubt either seat position is wrong per se. That's it. (I only addressed the 'go to an LBS' chorus because it is the default position of some posters. Rather like 'find a good lawyer' when advising on buying a house.)
  • v.e.e
    v.e.e Posts: 46
    I have just had a bike fit from Epic cycles and am staggered at how different a bike properly set up feels. I have long legs and find that when seat is at right height I have to shove it forward so I can reach handlebars. Epic have shown me that this is all wrong. Seat has to go back and handlebars have to come up and nearer.

    Although I have previously operated on a move it up move it down and see how it feels basis, I have discovered that there are rather more things to take into consideration than I thought.

    The bike fit was free and there was absolutely no pressure to buy anything. the philosophy at Epic is definitely about getting something that is right and not about trying to sell you a bike regardless.
  • John.T
    John.T Posts: 3,698
    You say a small change gave you trouble then said you raised it 1.5cm. That is not a small change. I would never move any saddle more than 3mm at a time and then ride it for several days before adjusting again.
    For what it is worth I set my saddle height by slowly raising it until my pelvis just started to rock then went down until it stopped. It works for me and I am an old guy who can still do 70+ mile rides with no trouble. I started riding again 12 years ago and (touch wood) I have not had any use or over use problems so I have got some things right. Correct saddle set back is also important.
  • guilliano
    guilliano Posts: 5,495
    John T is right.... 1.5cm is a big move. I lowered my saddle by about 5mm after riding on Sunday as I started to get knee pain having previously raised it by 1cm. The 5mm adjustment has me in what seems to be exactly the right position (judging by a quick 8 mile spin last night and a 24 mile round trip commute today). Try measuring your inside leg (from right up where your saddle would be) then put the saddle to that height minus 1cm from the axle of the pedal as a starting point
  • geoff_ss
    geoff_ss Posts: 1,201
    It's certainly possible to detect tiny differences in saddle height.

    Before I went clipless I used to commute with clips and straps with Sidi touring shoes. If I went out to the shops at lunchtime I didn't bother changing my shoes and wore normal shoes which had thicker soles - probably no more than 3mm difference. The saddle felt much too low when I did that, not that it mattered for less than a mile but I was surprised at how obvious it was.

    I would suggest never changing saddle height by more than 3mm at a time once you're somewhere near to correct.

    Geoff
    Old cyclists never die; they just fit smaller chainrings ... and pedal faster