Oh NO, not another...

butcher of bakersfield

...hardtail v full suss' topic!

I've resisted the urge on posting this so far, knowing that you guys will feel nausious at the site, but I've looked, and looked, and looked at what's already here, and elsewhere, and yet I remain very confused.

What I don't want to do, is start a debate on what's better, that's fairly fairly pointless since it's relative and no true answer exists. Instead I'm seeking a grasp of the facts, the myths and an outline that will help me decide what's right for me at this time. So, I have a few questions. Feel free to add more.

Question 1.

Why is it I see only full suss in the media? MBUK, MBR, etc. If there's a hardtail in there, it's because it's on test. Are hardtails being phased out by trail riders with the preference leaning towards full suss for anyone with the budget? Are they really that much better? That much more fun? I'll feel like a viking following these guys down the trails on a hardtail. Yet on here so many people, and even sometimes in the media for that matter, profess that a hardtail is the way to go. So why don't I see them being ridden? Are hardtails being pushed towards the serious xc racer, the commuter, the tourer, and the general bummerer abouterer? Are these no longer considered serious trail machines, by everyone but those with their philosophical talk of 'purity' whilst out on their full suss?

Question 2.

Is a fuss suss machine a potential money pit, requiring costly services every year or two, or three...or four..? Is it likely to eventually break down in the middle of nowhere? Or is it a myth that hardtail is a more reliable machine. I know my battered old GT will take endless abuse, and can always be fixed roadside with a simple tool kit smaller than a mobile phone.

Question 3.

Is weight really an issue? A mate of mine has a large full suss stumpy - a giant next to my hardtail. Yet it feels a hell of a lot lighter and easier to ride. I've no idea what my bike weighs, it's cromo, it ain't light, but I have no probs on the hills. Sure, something lighter would be nice, but is moaning about a 30lb full suss merely a product of being a bunch of sissies brought up on super light xc race bikes?

I'm sure I'll have more. Later...

supersonic

I think you have to a large part answered many of your questions: it is relative and a lot comes down to rider preference. Also we have to factor in all the types of riding and terrain from smooth XC to cliff jumping lunatics!

Here where I live I see more hardtails than full sussers. Maybe that is because there are a few jump tracks (hardtails still rule for many for dirt jumping!), lots of XC and trans pennine trail routes.

I prefer a hardtail for my general riding (mainly XC and a few difficult trails consisting of small jumps and drops and big rocks) because testing next to a similarly priced full susser the advantages of the sus weren't that apparent, or certainly not relative to me. The hardtail was lighter - I could go further on it, manoevere the bike easier and it just felt a lot more nimble. I was faster too. It pedalled better, climbed better and while not as comfortable, (that isn't my main concern) the HT was far from a bruiser.

For short sharp local rides, and bigger terrain I do prefer some rear sus as it gives a little more confidence and damage limitation. Weight not so much of an issue now, nor pedalling. Horses for courses?

The maintenance issue - yes, full sussers do take more. You have introduced another shock that needs servicing and several pivots. Can be a quick job though!

In the end it does come down to what feels best for you. Try a few out, see how they feel! Like flat pedals/spds, risers/flat bars, alu/steel, there is not always a definitive answer for the questions as we very on our ideals.

Northwind

If you read Dirt, there's often hardtails in there- OK, it's ALWAYS a Cotic but still. And I think in the last MBUK Doddy's longtermer section included a Cove of some sort?

supersonic

I think more and more people will go back to to the classic 100mm hardtail set up for all round trail use. Small frame with long seatpost, 38/24 cranks with SLX parts, stiff strong fork, 2.4 tyres - fairly strong, fairly light, and very capable.

butcher of bakersfield

Excellent advice, again, Supersonic! Appreciated.

supersonic wrote:

I prefer a hardtail for my general riding (mainly XC and a few difficult trails consisting of small jumps and drops and big rocks) because testing next to a similarly priced full susser the advantages of the sus weren't that apparent, or certainly not relative to me.

That's interesting. I'm no nutter on a bike, I like a fast trail like anyone else, and quite happy to tackle most routes, but I'm not really interested in 'downhill' pace or 10 foot drops, I like my body parts where they are.

The maintenance issue - yes, full sussers do take more. You have introduced another shock that needs servicing and several pivots. Can be a quick job though!

Granted, my GT has some very basic suss forks (green foamy stuff inside), but they've lasted over 10 years without any real service, even if they are virtually useless. I think I may even prefer the option of spring forks over air for that reason. Are modern forks in need of regular attention?

I think more and more people will go back to to the classic 100mm hardtail set up for all round trail use.

I'm curious, why not 140mm?

supersonic

In the last 5 years forks have got a lot more user friendly - great seals, well made internals, stiff structures and the service intervals have dropped many report 2 years or longer without touching them. I always give them a wipe down though and add a bit of oil to the seal area after a ride or two.

Air forks I would say do require servicing more often as there are more seals and o rings inside. Coils are pretty bombproof! But as above, they are so much better now.

I think the seemingly never ending progression of manufacturers upping fork travel has to be coming to an end soon. More is seen as best, and they will always push this. But the 100mm hardtail does not always mean a race XC bike in my eyes. Less travel means less of a geometry change through its stroke, they are usually stiffer and lighter and for many, is enough. The bigger hardtails will still be there, but I feel there will be a rewind to the classic formula of a few years ago with a twist of updated gearing and geometry.

I admit I am sensitive to weight - I am nort the fittest as have a few health problems and appreciate the lower weight of a bike. I also don't like the feeling of pedal kickbak in some designs, and even on my old Idrive which is comparatively excellent in this area, you can still 'fee' something in the chain. Was a great bike, but ultimately too heavy and my new carbon framed beastie is comfortabble, predictable, and still fun!

Stumpy Ade

I moved from Hard tail to full suss last year. I've noticed two things;

90% of the time I lock the rear sus out, but for the 10% that I need it I'm very grateful.

Daz555

Stumpy Ade wrote:

I moved from Hard tail to full suss last year. I've noticed two things;

90% of the time I lock the rear sus out, but for the 10% that I need it I'm very grateful.

Locked out for 90% of the time? I'd say I was the other way around - I only ever use the lockout on buttery smooth climbs and on the brief occasions I find myself on tarmac.

I tempted to suggest you might have been better with a hardtail, but I don't want to appear cheeky!

Stumpy Ade

Daz555 wrote:

Stumpy Ade wrote:

I moved from Hard tail to full suss last year. I've noticed two things;

90% of the time I lock the rear sus out, but for the 10% that I need it I'm very grateful.

Locked out for 90% of the time? I'd say I was the other way around - I only ever use the lockout on buttery smooth climbs and on the brief occasions I find myself on tarmac.

I tempted to suggest you might have been better with a hardtail, but I don't want to appear cheeky!

Do you know what I think you could well be right !

But as I say, when I do use it, I couldn't do without it. I just don't see the benefit for anything other than fast downhill.

Maybe it just feels like it's only 10% downhill

Daz555

Stumpy Ade wrote:

I just don't see the benefit for anything other than fast downhill.

I like that the rear suss helps keeps the wheel in contact on climbs. It also allows me to stay in the saddle over some of the roots/rocks/bumps on sections that would normally have me on the pedals on a HT in order to save my @rse and spine from a jarring knock.

REMF

full sus gives amazing confidence on ridiculous downhill trails.

Stumpy Ade

Daz555 wrote:

Stumpy Ade wrote:

I just don't see the benefit for anything other than fast downhill.

I like that the rear suss helps keeps the wheel in contact on climbs. It also allows me to stay in the saddle over some of the roots/rocks/bumps on sections that would normally have me on the pedals on a HT in order to save my @rse and spine from a jarring knock.

On the climbs, does it help by giving the rear wheel traction or by keeping the front wheel down ? I automatically thought that I'd be wasting energy by using the FS but there are some climbs where I do have traction problems.

Daz555

Stumpy Ade wrote:

Daz555 wrote:

Stumpy Ade wrote:

I just don't see the benefit for anything other than fast downhill.

I like that the rear suss helps keeps the wheel in contact on climbs. It also allows me to stay in the saddle over some of the roots/rocks/bumps on sections that would normally have me on the pedals on a HT in order to save my @rse and spine from a jarring knock.

On the climbs, does it help by giving the rear wheel traction or by keeping the front wheel down ? I automatically thought that I'd be wasting energy by using the FS but there are some climbs where I do have traction problems.

It should help by keeping the rear in contact with the ground. As long as your pedaling style is smooth and you do not induce too much pedal-bob, you probably won't find it wastes energy at all.

Stumpy Ade

Ok sold, i'll give it a go. I have serious doubts about my smooth pedaling style though.

supersonic

Try some out though - loads of sus designes out there, and they all behave slightly differently. Some squat under power, some extend.