cleat and knee pain

waytogoyet

Morning I'm after a bit of advice please
-
I'm a runner who likes to cycle, I was training for london but developed ITBS a month or so back. Pretty much stopped the running and deferred but cycled some more.
Then the ITBS started to die down a bit to be replaced with a horrible pain in the front of the knee. When I started to do more cycling it was in some new shoes that I didn't pay much attention to cleat positioning.
Having looked it up I'm 90% sure that my 'runners knee' has been caused by cycling whilst resting from running!
Being a bit of a cretin, can I have some advice of where / how to fit the cleats in the correct position? I've read about 6degree float etc to help prevent knee injury but I don't understand that too much - is that how much you have to struggle to unclip!?

I've also joined the gym for a little while to strengthen my legs, and address what caused the initial ITBS

any help appreciated!
Cheers
WTGY

kingrollo

work on your quads in the gym - leg raises !

Find and mark your shoes (on the side) where the ball of your foot is - and take your basic position from that. For the angle of the cleat ride a bike without cleats and see what position your feet natuarally go to - or just sit on a table and see how your feet angle.

nferrar

As above the pedal axle should be under the ball of your foot. I used to check my alignment using the sitting on the table thing but these days I generally just do it by eye and then go for a short ride and see how it feels and adjust as needed. Some pedals/cleats are fixed (once cleat is engaged in pedal then it won't allow side-to-side movement unless it's enough to release the mechanism and unclip you) and some have float (allows a a few degrees side-to-side movement with little resistance, any more and you'll start to unclip but that takes noticeably more force, at least if you haven't backed off the clip tension all the way).

Headhuunter

This sounds like a continuation of ITBS which can also cause knee pain - http://www.return2fitness.co.uk/injury_ ... s_knee.php

Amongst cyclists (and runners), knee pain can also be caused by the muscle along the outside of the thigh being disproportially stronger than the vastus medalis (inside quad muscle). This causes irregular tracking of the patella and therefore pain as it scrapes across the cartilage in the knee.

As the previous poster says, you may need to execise the vastus medalis through leg lifts at the gym. There are many other techniques, you should have a look at weights sites on the web

waytogoyet

Rollo - thanks for reply, I've been looking all over the place and actually stumbled on the advice about hanging legs when sat on stool. I've just actually done that, definite toe out, I'm pretty certain that cleats are positioned square on, and are as tight as a ducks rse! It actually felt a bit unnatural when I turned my foot in to replicate the position they would be in on the bike, I'll adjust this afternoon and hope that will ease the pain, and ultimately stop it

I do hope thats the cause!!

Been doing most the leg exercises, although I'm trying to put off doing lunges for a while, I was lame for about 5 days after the last lot

kingrollo

I will get flamed for this ......but when I had knee problems - I found less float helped - when your knee is inflamed - the last thing you want is it wobbling about.

and to get flamed again .....I actually wore a knee support - but cut a slit in the knee part so the knee could move - but the surrounding muscles were protected !

waytogoyet

a few cross posts there!
Thanks for the explanation on floats nferrar I understand that now, that perhaps explains why I never seem to unclip as easily as others despite having the tension up

HH thanks too and for the link I've also looked up some more exercises specifically targetting that muscle,
It is weird to have weak / imbalanced muscles that are needed for cycling / running when thats all I've trained!! I do know I have tight hamstrings so perhaps thats causing the problems

Rollo I'll adjust my cleats but will bare in mind about less float

thanks all for advice

Headhuunter

Oh and I have heard that stretching the muscle on the outside of the thigh is effective at reducing patellar tracking. You can either lie on your back and pull your leg across your body, with the knee bent, or lie on your front with the bent leg tucked under your body and the other leg stretched out behind

Headhuunter

waytogoyet wrote:

a few cross posts there!
Thanks for the explanation on floats nferrar I understand that now, that perhaps explains why I never seem to unclip as easily as others despite having the tension up

HH thanks too and for the link I've also looked up some more exercises specifically targetting that muscle,
It is weird to have weak / imbalanced muscles that are needed for cycling / running when thats all I've trained!! I do know I have tight hamstrings so perhaps thats causing the problems

Rollo I'll adjust my cleats but will bare in mind about less float

thanks all for advice

That's the point though, of the muscles connected to the patella, running and cycling both use the muscle down the outside of the thigh a lot (can't remember the name of the muscle) but use the vastus medalis much less. Both the vastus medalis and the muscle on the outside of the thigh are connected to the knee cap, but if 1 is stronger than the other (through cycling and running), the knee cap is pulled in one one direction and out of alignment so strengthening of the weaker muscle and stretching the tighter, stronger muscle is helpful.

crankycrank

kingrollo wrote:

I will get flamed for this ......but when I had knee problems - I found less float helped - when your knee is inflamed - the last thing you want is it wobbling about.

and to get flamed again .....I actually wore a knee support - but cut a slit in the knee part so the knee could move - but the surrounding muscles were protected !

No flamming here, good advice for some. Just wanted to agree that there are no rules set in stone for everyone. Some other possible solutions; Using a slow cadence can be a problem for some people, try increasing your pedaling speed, especially on hills, and see if that helps, saddle height may be wrong, more float such as in Speedplay pedals works for some, Bernard Hinault almost had to retire from from racing due to knee pain caused by the then new Look clip in, zero float style pedals and knee pain had not been a consideration at the time because toe straps had always allowed some float. Once Look added some float to their pedals he returned to racing. Could be that you just need to build up some more strength for cycling but if the pain persists or gets worse you may just need to rest your knees for a week or more. I'm no doctor so use your descretion but this has been the case for myself and some other friends.

waytogoyet

Cleats adjusted for the commute home, could feel a bit of an ache in my left leg, so thats been adjusted too much, right knee felt fine but then it usually does whilst riding, nothing since. I'm going to move the left one back a bit but maybe keep the right one as is for now, and see how it goes as the week progresses

John.T

Having your saddle too low can give knee trouble. The knee should go fairly straight at the bottom of the stroke. As a rough guide you should have the saddle as high as possible without your pelvis rocking at all. Any movement and it is too high.

stevewj

Having run 70 - 100 m/week in my 30's and having had to pack it up due to an injury training for the steeplechase ending up in a lateral release, I took up cycling some years later. I've had knee probs for nearly 30 yrs due to pronation, eg length discrepancy, too many miles too fast etc when running and cycling. Tried 15 deg float Look pedals, SPDs, Crank Bros all with no real improvement. I have now used Speedplay zeros for a couple of months and have less probs than at any time since I took up cycling - NO pain when on the bike at all and only slight pain when e.g. getting up out of a chair. Very strongly recommended.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Some useful items here. Steve really does know his stuff.

http://www.cyclefitcentre.com/further%20reading.htm