Chain Cleaning
Not a title for the faint hearted but I am confused.
I have read the KMC web site (http://www.kmcchain.com/index.php?ln=en&fn=service#2) especially the warnings about chain cleaners and citrus solvents. All this is great but thie thing is I can never get my damn chains clean, particularly between the plates.
I then read this http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/cate ... stem-18750 and all becomes clear, as the dirt on my chain.
I already use Teflon dry lube to try to keep the dirt to a minimum and relube every ride during wet conditions.
Is it too much to ask, all I want is to keep my bike clean. I don't mind it getting dirty and having to clean it as this provides a useful excuse to retreat to the garage, but I need a technique to clean the chain.
I know this has been bandied about before and for this I apologise.
Any help, any at all, will be welcome
I have read the KMC web site (http://www.kmcchain.com/index.php?ln=en&fn=service#2) especially the warnings about chain cleaners and citrus solvents. All this is great but thie thing is I can never get my damn chains clean, particularly between the plates.
I then read this http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/cate ... stem-18750 and all becomes clear, as the dirt on my chain.
I already use Teflon dry lube to try to keep the dirt to a minimum and relube every ride during wet conditions.
Is it too much to ask, all I want is to keep my bike clean. I don't mind it getting dirty and having to clean it as this provides a useful excuse to retreat to the garage, but I need a technique to clean the chain.
I know this has been bandied about before and for this I apologise.
Any help, any at all, will be welcome
Coach H. (Dont ask me for training advice - 'It's not about the bike')
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Comments
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Assuming that when KMC refer to "chain washing machine" they are talking about the farly popular chain cleaning bath as in http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Cate ... goryID=243
"sure and certain way of instantly ruining your chain" then it can't be true. Loads of people have used these loads of times without problems. Clearly powerful degreasers will strip away most of the lubricant and it is wise to lubricate the chain as soon as it has dried off, otherwise corrosion could begin. Basically I think the KMC advice is bunkum.
If you are really worried, then one environmentally unfriendly solution would be to use diesel as a degreaser. This leaves a slightly oily fim behind (still needs proper lubricant though).0 -
careful wrote:Assuming that when KMC refer to "chain washing machine" they are talking about the farly popular chain cleaning bath as in http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Cate ... goryID=243
"sure and certain way of instantly ruining your chain" then it can't be true. Loads of people have used these loads of times without problems. Clearly powerful degreasers will strip away most of the lubricant and it is wise to lubricate the chain as soon as it has dried off, otherwise corrosion could begin. Basically I think the KMC advice is bunkum.
If you are really worried, then one environmentally unfriendly solution would be to use diesel as a degreaser. This leaves a slightly oily fim behind (still needs proper lubricant though).
I would say KMC know more about their chains than a journalist, wouldn't you? or have they a motive for saying 'don't use solvents on your chain'Pegoretti
Colnago
Cervelo
Campagnolo0 -
on-yer-bike said: [/quote]I would say KMC know more about their chains than a journalist, wouldn't you? or have they a motive for saying 'don't use solvents on your chain'
Generally yes, but in this case I am not convinced.0 -
The quickest easiest way to clean your chain is as follows.
Get a scourer pad,(I think 'Scotchbrite are one of the manufacturers), and spray some GT 85 on it. Wrap it round the chain with one hand, and turn the crank with the other. You can then scrub the chain very quickly and efficiently, without dousing the internals with degreaser. I clean the sides first, then the top and bottom. The result is a very clean chain, and to me it is a lot less hassle than a chain cleaner.0 -
I put my dirty chains in a jar of white spirit, shake hard, leave for a while, shake hard, remove, wipe, drip dry, lube.
I let the white spirit settle, decant the clean stuff, clean out the grunge left in the bottom with paper towels.
after every ride I just wipe down with a rag sprayed with tf2 or such like, then lube. occasionally I use a chain cleaner with soapy water, when that does not do the job i dunk it in the white spirit.
I use white lightning epic or purple extreme chain lube all year round.--
Burls Ti Tourer for Tarmac, Saracen aluminium full suss for trails0 -
I never take the chain off the bike. Take a clean rag and run the chain through it until I get
tired of doing it, and it(the cloth and / or chain) starts to look fairly clean. I stop and re lube
with a wax based lube and ride. I don't have chain or shifting or noise problems. I do this
once a week or so. Takes about ten minutes. To be honest, the only way to keep your chain looking new is to not ride. Keep it well lubed, well wiped down, and forget about how it looks.
Dennis Noward0 -
I use the 'andrewjoseph' method, but instead of white spirit, I use paraffin. 8)AT MY AGE, I SHOULD KNOW BETTER !!!0
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I remove the chain, place it in a bowl cover with white spirit work it well in with a brush, hang the chain up wipe with a clean lint free cloth, let it dry, place on the bike and lube according to weather conditions.Tail end Charlie
The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.0 -
dennisn wrote:I never take the chain off the bike. Take a clean rag and run the chain through it until I get
tired of doing it, and it(the cloth and / or chain) starts to look fairly clean. I stop and re lube
with a wax based lube and ride. I don't have chain or shifting or noise problems. I do this
once a week or so. Takes about ten minutes. To be honest, the only way to keep your chain looking new is to not ride. Keep it well lubed, well wiped down, and forget about how it looks.
Dennis Noward
Exactly!!!
From the time that I started the same all problems gone.
May riders don't realize that after taking of the chain it may be put back in four different ways (left-right, forward-backward).
It means that almost each time it is reinstalled in different way that in fact accelerate the wear.0 -
dennisn wrote:I never take the chain off the bike. Take a clean rag and run the chain through it until I get
tired of doing it, and it(the cloth and / or chain) starts to look fairly clean. I stop and re lube
with a wax based lube and ride. I don't have chain or shifting or noise problems. I do this
once a week or so. Takes about ten minutes. To be honest, the only way to keep your chain looking new is to not ride. Keep it well lubed, well wiped down, and forget about how it looks.
Dennis Noward
Exactly!!!
From the time that I started the same all problems gone.
May riders don't realize that after taking of the chain it may be put back in four different ways (left-right, forward-backward).
It means that almost each time it is reinstalled in different way that in fact accelerate the wear.0 -
kozzo wrote:...
May riders don't realize that after taking of the chain it may be put back in four different ways (left-right, forward-backward).
It means that almost each time it is reinstalled in different way that in fact accelerate the wear.
Can you explain to me exactly how that matters?
As far as i can see the chains i use are symmetrical. there is no up down, left right.--
Burls Ti Tourer for Tarmac, Saracen aluminium full suss for trails0 -
dennisn wrote:... and it(the cloth and / or chain) starts to look fairly clean.
so you start with a clean rag and stop when the rag is cleaner?--
Burls Ti Tourer for Tarmac, Saracen aluminium full suss for trails0 -
kozzo wrote:May riders don't realize that after taking of the chain it may be put back in four different ways (left-right, forward-backward).
It means that almost each time it is reinstalled in different way that in fact accelerate the wear.
surely that would reduce wear, not accelerate it..?0 -
Surely the main issue here is :
a).whether it is desirable to keep removing the chain.
I would argue that in pure mechanical terms, this cannot be a good idea.
b). whether it is desirable to clean the internals of the chain as well as the outside.
The fact that KMC argue strongly against the latter led to me stopping using the chain bath method and using the method I outlined above. My chains have lasted considerably longer as a result. By keeping the outside of the chain clean it has stopped the accumulation of grime, without washing out the original internal lube.0 -
softlad wrote:kozzo wrote:May riders don't realize that after taking of the chain it may be put back in four different ways (left-right, forward-backward).
It means that almost each time it is reinstalled in different way that in fact accelerate the wear.
surely that would reduce wear, not accelerate it..?
Quite opposite.
It changes the angles that chain work with.
Once chain is adapted to setup all forces tend to be equally applied.
Moving forward and backward or left right always creates new angles/surfaces of contact that have to adapt.
Unidirectional application always results in wear reduction.0 -
andrewjoseph wrote:kozzo wrote:...
May riders don't realize that after taking of the chain it may be put back in four different ways (left-right, forward-backward).
It means that almost each time it is reinstalled in different way that in fact accelerate the wear.
Can you explain to me exactly how that matters?
As far as i can see the chains i use are symmetrical. there is no up down, left right.
Chain use is asymmetrical.
You can change directon of rotation or side of chain as its construction is symmetrcal.0 -
It's another of those Campag vs Shimano, helmet vs deathwish debates.
For the clean-freak I can see the appeal of taking the chain off the bike and getting it all shiny in a bath of solvent. Easier still with KMC type chain links etc.
Since I'm a lazy sod I leave it on the bike, try to get the outside as clean as possible by running it through a rag, then lube it liberally and wipe off the excess. My chain's never going to be as clean as the solvent bath can get it, but I find comfort in KMC's advice. It works and it's quiet. I also tend to do it more often than I otherwise would, which in this weather is essential.
TBH I don't suppose there's that much difference in chain wear between the two methods. If I do ever wear out the chain it will be a major achievement in itself!0 -
I tested this on 2007 and 2008 on two identical Campag Record 9 chains on similar distance.
I doesn't change the fact that everyone is free to do whatever he wants with his bike.0 -
Nickwill wrote:Surely the main issue here is :
a).whether it is desirable to keep removing the chain.
I would argue that in pure mechanical terms, this cannot be a good idea....
Why? I use SRAM power links, it does not damage the chain and the links themselves are very strong. I have only broken one in 8 years of mtb riding. i go through 2-3 chains a year and use the same links over and over.--
Burls Ti Tourer for Tarmac, Saracen aluminium full suss for trails0 -
kozzo wrote:andrewjoseph wrote:kozzo wrote:...
May riders don't realize that after taking of the chain it may be put back in four different ways (left-right, forward-backward).
It means that almost each time it is reinstalled in different way that in fact accelerate the wear.
Can you explain to me exactly how that matters?
As far as i can see the chains i use are symmetrical. there is no up down, left right.
Chain use is asymmetrical.
You can change directon of rotation or side of chain as its construction is symmetrcal.
I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are trying to say.--
Burls Ti Tourer for Tarmac, Saracen aluminium full suss for trails0 -
He's saying that you may put the chain back on in a different way (think of taking it off, laying it out flat, and turning it 180 degrees and putting it back on 'upside down') than it came off. The chain and cassette rings will have been wearing together in a particular way, and now they are working together a different way. The effect can be similar to putting a new chain on worn rings, which will accelerate wear.0
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I used to clean the chain with White Spirit and then relube it. Then I was convinced that using a citrus degreaser was the best bet.
Now, I use whichever method will get the chain cleanest, usually the latter. I then get a micro fiber towel and run the chain through it to remove anything else from the chain.
After that I use some Finish Line Wet Lube on the chain, and let it soak in for about 10 minutes or so. Then I run the chain through another microfiber to remove teh excess lube.
Then every couple of weeks I just remove the excess dirt again as listed above.0 -
andrewjoseph wrote:kozzo wrote:andrewjoseph wrote:kozzo wrote:...
May riders don't realize that after taking of the chain it may be put back in four different ways (left-right, forward-backward).
It means that almost each time it is reinstalled in different way that in fact accelerate the wear.
Can you explain to me exactly how that matters?
As far as i can see the chains i use are symmetrical. there is no up down, left right.
Chain use is asymmetrical.
You can change directon of rotation or side of chain as its construction is symmetrcal.
I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are trying to say.
Chain is not equally tensioned as it works angled and cassette and chainring are different in size. Forces are nor equally distributed.
Due to this asymmetric wear developes.
Opening and closing chain results in four possible closing configuration.
Let you mark one side of one chainlink with little arrow.
After opening you can close it with arrow being on the top of the chanring:
- pointing forward and on the outer side of chainring
- pointing forward on the inner side of chainring
- pointing backward on the outer side of chainring
- pointing backward on the inner side of chainring
In three of them (being different than original) chain starts to work with new angles configuration.
It has has to adapt to this and additional wear occurs.
Like with bidirectional tyres.
If you chage rotation additional wear will occur.0 -
Only once bothered to "properly" degrease a chain & then re-lube & it was stuffed within a 1000 miles.
Wipe of crud, lube, wipe till clean, repeat. takes 10 mins and seems to work just fine.
I can't see why we all get so wound up on this one - but then again I'm running a fairly cheap drive train0 -
keef66 wrote:It's another of those Campag vs Shimano, helmet vs deathwish debates.
Campag
Helmet
clinchers
People get obsessive-compulsive about chain cleaning, there have been internet stories (so, they must be true) about citrus-base cleaners eroding chains, if people soak the chains in the cleaner all winter, which, of course, is a stupid thing to do.
Idiots are drawn to industrial solvents like moths to the flame (from the evaporated industrial solvent).
Clip on a brush-washer with white mineral spirits, spin 20 seconds, wipe off chain, fresh lube*, ride...if you are taking more than 50 seconds without a cigarette break, you're doing something wrong.
...and take parts suppliers advice with a grain of salt, there are many ruined frames from people not greasing CF seatposts, following Easton instructions.
Good example of the power of the internet:
From Velonews:
Carbon and acetone
Dear Lennard,
Regarding acetone use for cleaning glue off of carbon rims,acetone should be used with great caution on carbon fiber reinforced polymer (CFRP) components, since it can dissolve the epoxy matrix.
While cursory contact will normally be fine, soaking CFRP in acetone will damage the epoxy and possible lead to failure. Any damaged components should not be cleaned with acetone, since the liquid solvent could enter cracks or scratches in the clear coat (or holes leading to the inside of components!) and slowly plasticize the epoxy from within. Acetone should always be washed off with plenty of clean water.
Although less effective than some other methods, acetone digestion of epoxy matrix is a fairly common method of determining the volume fraction of CFRP laminates. Methanol is a much more appropriate solvent for cleaning reinforced epoxies.
Tobias
Dear Tobias,
Actually, I have looked into this a lot in the past and would not have recommended it without having done so. Here are some responses to your assertion from three people who know more about carbon composites than I could ever hope to.
Lennard
An answer from Calfee
Lennard,
That’s utter nonsense. Epoxies are rated in two standard tests: boiling in water and boiling in acetone. The rating calls out the amount of water or acetone absorbed. Epoxy does not dissolve in acetone. Acetone is a great solvent for uncured epoxy. But once it's cured, acetone doesn't hurt it.
The only problem with acetone as it relates to bikes is that it will dull paint and clear coats. Most bicycle parts are coated, sometimes with a satin or flat finish that looks like nude carbon. Acetone will change the glossiness (or lack thereof) and make you think it's doing something to the epoxy. Alcohol is the strongest solvent you can use that will not affect paint.
We offer frames in a nude finish and offer to strip all coatings off other carbon frames. Then we treat it with a UV filtering protectant (303 Protectant). Acetone cleans off this Scotch-guard-like treatment and it would need to be re-done.
That's more than you need to know about acetone!
Craig Calfee
Calfee Design
An answer from ADA
Lennard,
We’ve never had any problem with acetone, and it can only hurt the foam inside. No it does not dissolve our carbon matrix.
Cees Beers
Founder and president, ADA Wheels
An answer from Hed
Lennard,
I’m more of a wheel expert than a resin expert, but here is our experience: We have never soaked wheels in acetone but we have used it as a cleaner for 20 years and have never had a problem with resin degrading. I’m not worried about our use for two reasons: cleaning is a “cursory contact” and acetone is pretty volatile. A rag soaked in acetone only stays wet for about 30 seconds before the acetone completely evaporates. Second, acetone is fairly harmless. You can get it on your skin and not worry (though it does dry your hands out very quickly and very effectively), and vapors are not a problem in a decently ventilated area.
Methanol can cause blindness and death in relatively low doses and can be absorbed through the skin. I don’t dispute that soaking a carbon wheel in acetone might degrade the resin, but since we don’t soak the wheels, we’ll continue to use it.
Andy Tetmeyer
Hed Design
[url][/url]0 -
Thanks for the explanation guys, i don't particularly agree with it, but then i've never run a chain without taking it off the bike.
Even on new bikes, I break the chain and take 2-3 links out to get my preference of length, then put power links on.
As i spend most of my riding time on my mtb, I've got into the patterns of thoroughly cleaning my chain regularly. A wipe down just won't do after a mud fest.
My view is that changing direction will even out any wear, I change my chain when the wear indicator suggests and before there is obvious hooking on the cassette and chainrings.--
Burls Ti Tourer for Tarmac, Saracen aluminium full suss for trails0 -
andrewjoseph wrote:I put my dirty chains in a jar of white spirit, shake hard, leave for a while, shake hard, remove, wipe, drip dry, lube.
I let the white spirit settle, decant the clean stuff, clean out the grunge left in the bottom with paper towels.
after every ride I just wipe down with a rag sprayed with tf2 or such like, then lube. occasionally I use a chain cleaner with soapy water, when that does not do the job i dunk it in the white spirit.
I use white lightning epic or purple extreme chain lube all year round.
Andrew will meth spirits work?There is never redemption, any fool can regret yesterday...
Be Pure! Be Vigilant! Behave!0 -
madeupnameforthisthread wrote:Only once bothered to "properly" degrease a chain & then re-lube & it was stuffed within a 1000 miles.
Wipe of crud, lube, wipe till clean, repeat. takes 10 mins and seems to work just fine.
I can't see why we all get so wound up on this one - but then again I'm running a fairly cheap drive train
Sounds like me. Used to be really anal about cleaning the chain, no more.
Dennis Noward0 -
WORTH READING
I emailed Purple Extreme about cleaning my new KMC chain and this is the reply:
"We used the KMC DX10 chains all of the time. In fact, it is my favorite 10 speed chain. We degrease them before installation. Get the sticky grease out of the chain before you use any lube, The grease will act as a glue, retaining any speck of grit. Once the grit works it's way into the chain you are lubricating with sandpaper. And that is a great way to accelerate wear and sell more hardware.
Clean up, stay clean, extend the service life of your equipment."
Hope this helps.Pegoretti
Colnago
Cervelo
Campagnolo0 -
drewfromrisca wrote:...
Andrew will meth spirits work?
yes but it is more expensive. I keep the meths for cleaning rims/disk brake rotors.--
Burls Ti Tourer for Tarmac, Saracen aluminium full suss for trails0