Rivington mtb outrage!

Whytepeak

Rivinton trails may be taken from northwest riders

http://magazine.mountainbikeskills.co.u ... trail.html

This is one of few sites in the area fit for mtb'ing - it's a scandal.
People can drive their 4x4s up there but we can't stay healthy and enjoy the countryside we are steadily losing. Its a fact that mtb cause less erosion than walkers, so whats their beef :?

Raymondavalon

I don't know the trial but your comment on 4x4 drivers concerns me
As an owner of Land Lovers and a huge fan of greenlaning I feel your pain when trials are closed. 4x4 clubs have also lost access to BOAT and ROW areas due to the protests and concerns of walkers.
Bear in mind most 4x4 owners and clubs are very environmentaly concious and we like to leave places in the same condition that we found them in and often better, collecting garbage and litter left by some.
Our club even removes burned out (stolen) car wrecks dumped by joy riders from country lane areas where the local council and police cannot access them. This is a service we provide free.

As for the Rivington trial, and I quote form your link:

"The warning signs, which were erected at the end of May, sets out the risks if riders continue to erode trails and behave in a selfish manner"
Sadly, it's always the minority who spoil it for the majority. Further on the article reads:

"But campaigns have been started in an attempt to bring mountain bikers closer together and spread the word that abuse of the trails that exist at present will result in them being closed.
The warning states that bikers are wandering away from designated bridleways causing erosion to historical features and diruption to other users. It clearly adds that concessionary bridleways will be demoted to footpaths if this continues"

I think this can be solved through informing and educating riders to stay off those ares noit designated for them t ride on

Of course the walkers ho hate anything with wheels will be more than willing to report offenders to the local authrorities should the rules continue to be flaunted, even i the biker made an honest mistake.

dave_hill

As far as permissive (concessionary) bridleways are concerned, they can do what they like - the landowner has the right to close or downgrade them without prior notice. They are there by the good grace of the landowner and for no other reason.

If the bridleway is a Public Right of Way, however, it's a different kettle of fish. They have to apply for a downgrading order from the local authority which then has to go through the proper consultation procedure.

It is by no means a cut-and-dried affair - it can take a very long time and considerable resources to downgrade a PROW, and many attempts are unsuccesful, because of right of precedent - that is to say, if a particular PROW has been used without challenge for a paritcular number of years it's existence is more or less enshrined in law. (I have cycled in Rivington Park, without challenge, at least 3 times between 1988 and 2008 - that's 20 years).

It may be that United Utilities try to bring charges of trespass. This is incredibly difficult, since trespass is a civil offence, not a criminal offence, so neither the police nor the CPS would be involved.

The burden of proof also lies with the plaintif - that is to say that it would be up to United Utilities to prove that a mountain biker or mountain bikers were causing damage to their property and doing so deliberately. It would then be up to a judge to decide how much compensation to award. Both would be incredibly difficult, and both cases (!) brought to court against cyclists trespassing in the last 100 years have been thrown out.

That said, once again it's the badly behaved minority that will spoil it for all of us.

On a personal note, I think that trying to use MTBs properly in Rivington is a non-starter anyway - don't forget that it's a public park, not a trail centre. And it's not the most inspiring really - OK for beginners and racing snakes maybe but aside from that not really a challenge. We're always going to be outnumbered by peds anyway so there's bound to be clashes.

dave_hill

Raymondavalon wrote:

Bear in mind most 4x4 owners and clubs are very environmentaly concious and we like to leave places in the same condition that we found them in and often better, collecting garbage and litter left by some.

Sorry chap, but I have to disagree with you there.

I don't call pumping hundred of tons of CO, CO2, sulphur, prions and other unburnt hydrocarbons into the atmosphere "environmentally conscious".

One also only has to witness the state of roads such as Mastiles Lane to see the damage that use of mechanically-propelled vehicles causes, and the fact that closing such byways to them helps them top recover somewhat.

4 x 4s and off-road motorcycles aren't exactly quiet, either.

I'm all for personal freedom, but not where it damages the environment or spoils my enjoyment of it.

topsey_turvey

On a personal note, I think that trying to use MTBs properly in Rivington is a non-starter anyway - don't forget that it's a public park, not a trail centre. And it's not the most inspiring really - OK for beginners and racing snakes maybe but aside from that not really a challenge. We're always going to be outnumbered by peds anyway so there's bound to be clashes.

Spot on old bean. The areas adjacent to the barns are full of trippers, walkers, doggers (walking them!) and general assorted "innits". The big broad trails are good to ride, but any sensible rider takes their time on these stretches. Once over the back of The Pike there are fewer human obstacles, but the trails are not really that brilliant.

The problem - as ever - is that a few mountain bikers have decided that the land can be ridden just as they see fit. They do ride the popular footpaths, and they do create their own trails through the Chinese Gardens - cul m8 LOL.

If you read B&D's website about the Healey Nab trail you'll see the exact problem. There is trail building going on there; not a big trail, but better than what exists. B ut....the baggy jeans and full body armour brigade have decided that having a head high jump over a bridleway regularly used by walkers and riders must remain. They are also building their own new trails adjacent to the official one, because they don't like what's being given to them.

The attitude all round Rivington is that bikers can do what they want and everyone else has to make room for them. Rivington is a god place for an off day, but for serious ridin g it comes way down the list. As you say the minority will spoil it for the majority.

grumsta

Raymondavalon wrote:

I don't know the trial but your comment on 4x4 drivers concerns me
As an owner of Land Lovers and a huge fan of greenlaning I feel your pain when trials are closed. 4x4 clubs have also lost access to BOAT and ROW areas due to the protests and concerns of walkers.
Bear in mind most 4x4 owners and clubs are very environmentaly concious and we like to leave places in the same condition that we found them in and often better, collecting garbage and litter left by some.
Our club even removes burned out (stolen) car wrecks dumped by joy riders from country lane areas where the local council and police cannot access them. This is a service we provide free.

Come on - how environmentally conscious is it spinning the wheels of some 3 litre 4x4 as you struggle up a hill, making great big gouges in the process. Don't think you can really compare the damage done by 4x4s with mtbs.

BTW is Rivi not much cop then? I normally ride in the lakes but a mate works in Horwich and I was thinking of meeting him after work one night for a night ride. Is it fairly easy to find your way around?

Blackadder

Why would you drive a foocking land rover weener - do u want to wreck the planet

Tank-slapper

If Rivington is privately owned and the 'trails' are concessionary as suggested in the article, there is little that can be done except to plead for clemency. If that fails, go somewhere else.

I am in the strange position of being a Land Rover owner who doesn't go greenlaning. I used to in the past, but quickly realised that it is highly damaging to the environment and not much fun anyway (how connected to nature can you be when trapped inside a metal box?). There are several tracks around my area of the south Peak that have been damaged to the point of being unusable by everyone. Sorry, but recreational offroading in vehicles has to be restricted to designated places such as old quarries.

topsey_turvey

BTW is Rivi not much cop then? I normally ride in the lakes but a mate works in Horwich and I was thinking of meeting him after work one night for a night ride. Is it fairly easy to find your way around?

If you're thinking of a quick night ride then it's just about perfect. Not too tough, and not too long. There's a guy called Junkyard on STW who organises regular Tuesday night rides, but there are others who ride nearly every night. Shouldn't be hard to meet up with som eone if you need a guide.

One benefit of night riding is that it will be quieter, but watch out for the doggers!

BTW There was a MURDER up there this week, so the place is swarming with polis.

antfly

Was it a mountain biker that was murdered to by a walker to warn them off?If it was then it`s getting serious.

turpinr

was out up rivvy on monday afternoon in the snow.i only live 2.5 miles from the pike and would be pig sick if i couldn't bike up there. its ideal at night and as long as you avoid sundays theres no bother with walkers.plenty of room for both, and runners.
not sure about 4x4s though

Raymondavalon

Blackadder wrote:

Why would you drive a ******* land rover weener - do u want to wreck the planet

Yea, yea, yea and we have another keyboard hero

The reason I drive a land Rover is because I choose to. Simple. Oh and it's "wiener" by the way, but what can I expect from someone who "txt talks"?

Anonymous

I can't comment on Rivington, but 4x4's have wrecked almost all the half decent trails near me.

delcol

how can they host the commonwelth games from there tellevise around the globe then moan cause of the amonut of bikers going to the area,,,

i to am local to the area and have seen the booby traps put down by hikers from nails on the trail stuck in the mud to rocks built up across the trail,..

i never ridden around the gardens i prefare to get over winter hill and let rip down to belmont,.. i agree with the its not very techy or challenging but if you not got time for a road trip its on the door step and suits me,..
it does make some intersting night rides to,..

i cant wait to see what the trails a healeynab will be like,...

if i go riding in the area i go early or late sat afternoon. defo avoid sundays or the berghaus pole weilding bregade will moan at you,
and night rides may introduce you to the wnoderful world of dogging :shock:

The Northern Monkey

Blackadder wrote:

Why would you drive a ******* land rover weener - do u want to wreck the planet

would you rather he drove a Prius? they're more damaging to the environment than a Landy due to how the battery and other parts of the engine are made.

Back to the thread.

Will Snow

Thats a good idea, instead of MTBers and 4x4ers working together to get better access for all, we should fight in amongst ourselves. When we think that the walkers screw us over, then its no better for us to say all land rover drivers are killing the green lanes. Please note also that with regards to global warming (a little research goes a long way) cows are staggeringly more damage than pretty much everything else, and the internet uses 9% of the worlds electricty, so all maybe all you eco mentalists should logoff, eh??

Oh and vegetable oil conversion kits are available for land rovers are becoming more popular for obvious reasons. And the first person to say that cycling is carbon neutral gets a slap, because that is, in essence, as completely meaningless phrase.

grumsta

Notice you didn't mention erosion.

Will Snow

jesus, shall we put a massive plastic cover over the country?? Funnily enough erosion is part of the rock cycle... and there are many ways for it to happen. What are trying to protect then?? Are we trying to keep these places looking exactly as they did ten years ago?? One hundred years ago?? A thousand years ago?? Good luck with that...

Oh, what about my other arguments?? its not really a debate if you ignore them

The Northern Monkey

Will Snow wrote:

jesus, shall we put a massive plastic cover over the country?? Funnily enough erosion is part of the rock cycle... and there are many ways for it to happen. What are trying to protect then?? Are we trying to keep these places looking exactly as they did ten years ago?? One hundred years ago?? A thousand years ago?? Good luck with that...

Oh, what about my other arguments?? its not really a debate if you ignore them

ooo can we? it'd stop me from frigging sneezing due to pollen etc in the summer!

Will Snow

hahaha smooth man

Actually, if none of us enjoyed the countryside, it would never get damaged or changed. Shall we all hang out on the streets then??

grumsta

Well I didn't actually complain about the pollution etc cos I'm not sure about the conflicting evidence - I have however seen some green lanes completely wrecked by 4x4s. Gradual erosion over many years is a little different to a horrible churned up mess created over a very short space of time.

Will Snow

haha you ever been to a weekend long downhill race when its been racing?? least four be fours only leave two gullies...

Tank-slapper

In light of some of these recent comments, I don't fancy your chances of keeping mountain biking at Rivington. As long as there are people who think they have some kind of right to destroy the countryside that is.

grumsta

Will Snow wrote:

haha you ever been to a weekend long downhill race when its been racing?? least four be fours only leave two gullies...

Well if 4x4s stayed on courses on private land like dh races then that would be fine by me. It's messing up public rights of way that annoys me.

stumpyjon

4 x 4s and off road bikes do cause a lot of problems in the countryside, I'm not going to argue about the global warming perspective as I actually agree that there are plenty of other things out there doing far more harm (fat people driving to the local shop for example).

I do have a problem with the erosion, 1 4 x 4 does a lot more damage on wet ground than a load of bikes (I don't count DH racing as if it's on private land it's upto the landowner, same goes for offroading to be fair), we have a big problem around here with oiks on trials bikes churning everything up. The noise in the summer is terrible, it echos around the valleys. Plus if they tear past you at best you get a face full of mud, at worst you're peppered with small rocks.

I don't want to stop others enjoying their pastimes but when it starts to fundamentally affect significant numbers of others it's not justifiable. There's enough nuts out there who would like to go running around their local woods with guns, not many people would condone that.

dgould

well, they'll have to be ***kin fast to catch me up there....you aint never taking me alive copper!!

If I ever catch a sodding rambler laying a booby trap they'll never find theremains.

Solution - pay for parking and develop the trails.

As for 4X4s...my view is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbPERR2aybc

dgould

well, they'll have to be ***kin fast to catch me up there....you aint never taking me alive copper!!

If I ever catch a sodding rambler laying a booby trap they'll never find theremains.

Solution - pay for parking and develop the trails.

As for 4X4s...my view is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbPERR2aybc

Will Snow

huh, my dh trails are on forestry commission land...

Can i suggest you guys but a land rover magazine?? they basically have the same problem as us guys. a few people spoil it, they all get condemned?? most of them are responsible, and most trails that landys like, ramblers and mtbers wouldnt.

Raymondavalon

Will Snow wrote:

huh, my dh trails are on forestry commission land...

Can i suggest you guys but a land rover magazine?? they basically have the same problem as us guys. a few people spoil it, they all get condemned?? most of them are responsible, and most trails that landys like, ramblers and mtbers wouldnt.

Amen to those true words. Well pointed out.

Mattmanic

Will Snow wrote:

Oh and vegetable oil conversion kits are available for land rovers are becoming more popular for obvious reasons.

You don't even need a conversion kit. Just pour in biodiesel (a mix of vege oil/chip fat and diesel) and it'll run like normal, although you'll smell like chips.

Will Snow

very true, but cold vege oil doesnt run very well, conversion kits allow the diesel to heat up the oil, making it more viscous.
Raymondavalon Good good, has someone agreed with me?? (breaks down into tears) i... i dont know what to say... thank you god, and my girlfriend, and celine dion, and chuck norris...