Questions for Lance haters
Comments
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OK so what you lot are saying, 7 consecutive TDF victories is a piece of p*ss (pun intended), in fact ANY one of the armchair experts here would, if they popped a proplus or two be capable of notching up 7,8,9 or more TDFs if they chose. I have to say, I had no idea I was in the midst of such greatness !!.. who said that, internet forum people ?0
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Where did anyone say that? All I've read is that Coppi, Bartali and Merckx are great riders and that Armstrong's results (and most other rider's results from 1991 to 2007) may be partly due his collaboration with to Dr Ferrari.rockmount wrote:OK so what you lot are saying, 7 consecutive TDF victories is a piece of p*ss (pun intended), in fact ANY one of the armchair experts here would, if they popped a proplus or two be capable of notching up 7,8,9 or more TDFs if they chose. I have to say, I had no idea I was in the midst of such greatness !!0 -
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rockmount wrote:OK so what you lot are saying, 7 consecutive TDF victories is a piece of p*ss (pun intended), in fact ANY one of the armchair experts here would, if they popped a proplus or two be capable of notching up 7,8,9 or more TDFs if they chose. I have to say, I had no idea I was in the midst of such greatness !!
I hadn't realised you'd ridden the Tour.
I think you must have a degree in reading between the line, around the lines and through the lines, to come up with that.
The only riders to get put forward on this thread are the absolute greats. If Armstrong is in that company, no one is saying what you are suggesting.
It's also been put forward, that, had he not had cancer, he would have been an all-time great, hilly classics rider.
It is only the definition of "greatest" that is in question. Some equate it, simply in terms of wins. Others think it more complex.
A case for the greatest ever Tour rider could be put forward, for the likes of Raymond Poulidor or Vladislav Ekimov.
What of Joop Zoetemelk? He finished all of his 16 Tour de France attempts — the most in race history — and claimed 10 stages to complete the most enduring career in Tour annals."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Without wishing to lower the tone (!), didn't Joop finish one Tour despite an extremely uncomfortable and large saddle sore? Which he showed off to journalists during a press conference?Le Blaireau (1)0
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I'm the one reading between the lines etc ?? ... The question asked by the OP refers to "greatest TDF rider of all time", now correct me if I'm wrong but, I understood the primary objective is to win it... Thats what all the whole yellow jersey thing is about after all ! I find all the preoccupation with doping quite humorous, if a little tedious. I don't know how you can be bothered droning on, day after day. I don't think anyone is really interested. Why don't you just save it all for your memoirs, and leave the petty character assassination to the gutter press... who said that, internet forum people ?0
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Easy there. I think you just said that "what you lot are saying, 7 consecutive TDF victories is a piece of p*ss (pun intended), in fact ANY one of the armchair experts here would, if they popped a proplus or two be capable of notching up 7,8,9 or more TDFs if they chose" when I don't think anybody had said that, or even implied it.
Some are just stating that greatness is not always related to the number of wins, that maybe Coppi or Bartali could have been even greater had they not been stopped by war.
These are subtle arguments though, not absolute, that's why people discuss them, this isn't about the pure arithmetic of 1+1+1+1+1+1+1=7. Asking "who won the most tours" can be distinct from "who is the greatest". Why don't you debate the idea of greatness with us, give another view instead of ranting against fellow forum members?0 -
rockmount wrote:I'm the one reading between the lines etc ?? ... The question asked by the OP refers to "greatest TDF rider of all time", now correct me if I'm wrong but, I understood the primary objective is to win it... Thats what all the whole yellow jersey thing is about after all ! I find all the preoccupation with doping quite humorous, if a little tedious. I don't know how you can be bothered droning on, day after day. I don't think anyone is really interested. Why don't you just save it all for your memoirs, and leave the petty character assassination to the gutter press.
Give them hell rockmount. They deserve it. They really do.
dennis noward0 -
Why the personal animosity, why suggest "give them hell"?
It's ironic that a thread about "lance haters" broadly reveals not hate, just sceptism about Armstrong but flushes out anger from others who don't want to debate cycling, only to have a go at people. What's up? :?0 -
There can be little doubt that the majority of grand tour riders have doped since the year dot. whether it is a caffeine bung up the chuff or amphetamines or steroids etc which were widely used pre-EPO. However EPO had by far the biggest effect on performance - I remember Greg Lemond saying how in 1992 domestiques who could barely grind over the mountains were cruising up in the saddle barely breathing.
There can be no moral differentiation between EPO era cyclists and those to whom it was not available, drugs is drugs irrespective of the level of success they generate.
Did Lance dope, whilst not proven unequivocably those who read the press and books etc would likely formulate the opinion that its hugely doubtful he didn't.
Interesting people dislike his style of winning tours - the jan ullrich 'look', the crash then victory rampage in 2003 tour, not exacly an indurain drone is it? (though I accept not quite in the cannibal league of attacking)
I dont mind saying I am not a Lance hater, his attitude towards the French was very much dictated by their 'non-european winning the tour' attitude in the first place, and I dont see him as any more arrogant or bullying than Hinault0 -
iainf, did you read the article you linked to? Didn't you love the line about:
"I just didn't have the firepower to keep it going." Armstrong said after finishing the Australian six-day classic in 29th position, 49 seconds behind a winner that many cycling fans hadn't heard of.
What cycling fans would they be? The ones who follow Lance Armstrong to the exclusion of every other rider? Davies used to ride for Astana FFS! But then the article goes on to call him the 'greatest ever' rider showing the ignorance/lack of research of the reporter.
See that's the kind of blinkered sh*te that makes me mad about Armstrong - the assumption that we are all Lance groupies and couldn't give a fig about any other rider and that the sport essentially is Armstrong - not a long and colourful and extraordinary history of exploits and grand champions like Merckx and Coppi and Bartali and Hinault et al. Armstrong may figure amongst them - no one can argue that winning 7 TdFs isn't a great feat - but he is not the greatest of them and his achievements and palmares don't stand comparison with the very greatest.
But that's an opinion based on a knowledge of the sport's history not admiration of the achievements of one rider. You want an extraordinary accomplishement then Anquetil's Dauphine-Libere/Bordeaux-Paris double takes some beating http://homepage.ntlworld.com/veloarchiv ... double.htm0 -
he didnt link to a cycling magazine, its called "earth times" its written for a broad spectrum of readers.0
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iainf72 wrote:
I bet even Lance was blushing after reading that a$$ kissing article??
Do journalists get paid for writing stuff like this??
Where's my pen? Now Mother Theresa was nice to kids..........................0 -
here we go again, another thread descends faster than Falco into name calling and chaos.
Just because your sceptical of Armstrong, doesn't mean you hate him, although some do.
Just because you're an Armstrong fan, doesn't mean you know fig all about other areas of cycling, although some do.
It's friggin pointless and boring.
Greatness is subjective, if you think winning the most tours is the measure then LA is your man, but personally I think (the convicted doper) Merckx is the greatest because of his domination of all aspects of the race and winning all the jerseysPlanet X N2A
Trek Cobia 29er0 -
rapid_uphill wrote:he didnt link to a cycling magazine, its called "earth times" its written for a broad spectrum of readers.
It's just a newswire article.
But if you read the cycling press do you see a new shiney friendly Lance?
No, me neither.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
1. I'd rate the 7 straight wins below the 5 each of Anquetil, Merckx and Hinault because Lance's career post cancer was too focused on a single event whereas the others have far superior palmares. The Cannibal is the greatest tour rider IMO; Coppi & Bartali unfortunately are just speculation, Coppi was by all accounts'fragile'.
2. There are no positive tests so he wasn't doping. We are talking about 7 years worth of testing in and out of competition for a whole squad, the odds against that must be astronomical. I hope we don't see the day when hearsay and backstabbing are good enough to convict people.
3. No doubt he's pretty special; the tour wins were off the back of the best squad but the same thing happened last year. The fact is that he more than held his own against all opposition even when his team mates had dropped back, no one was strong enough to really test him even on the last tour he won. Ulrich, Kloden and Vinokourov - 3 team leaders working together weren't good enough.
4. A bit anti Pantani because he was banned for blood abnormalities; even Mercx was excluded from a Tour because of a doping allegation but nobody is casting doubt on him (certainly not me); Anquetil was quite open about it and even forfeited the hour record because he disagreed with being tested. Coppi is on record admitting he doped "when necessary" how often was that? "almost always". People don't speak badly of Tom Simpson who sadly died because of doping. What dope was available between the 30's and 90's is obviously very different but they took what was available at the time. It's in the past now, so is 1999 to 2005.O na bawn i fel LA0 -
We are talking about 7 years worth of testing in and out of competition for a whole squad, the odds against that must be astronomical
personally I'd say the odds were miniscule.0 -
I was trying to say the odds of getting no positives for a whole squad over 7 years if they were all doped up must be remote. Someone would have slipped up at some point on an out of competition test even if they had some reliable system of purging every single rider's system of all traces before the grand depart.
EPO's been around for over ten years, even last year the idiots caught out on the Tour couldn't do it without getting caught with Cera which was relatively new!O na bawn i fel LA0 -
but that's because the CERA test was available from a very early stage. Otherwise, testing is always 2 or 3 steps behind. If you've got the money, you can avoid positive tests. It would take something extraordinary for you to be caught. See Festina, for example.0
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Meds1962 wrote:I was trying to say the odds of getting no positives for a whole squad over 7 years if they were all doped up must be remote. Someone would have slipped up at some point on an out of competition test even if they had some reliable system of purging every single rider's system of all traces before the grand depart.
How many positives did T-Mobile have?Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
on a positive note (I can see all the haters eyes light up) Not that type of positive you wankers
some awesome pics here of lance Pre-Season and Pre-Comeback
http://www.elizabethkreutz.com/main.php
some pretty cool pics that you might not have seen before?
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The point about the article is that it cites 'cycling fans' as not knowing Allan Davis. Cycling fans do know Allan Davis. Armstrong fans, on the other hand, may very well not know the names of any member of the peloton outside some members of the Astana squad. I confess I generalise, but it's an easy generalisation to make. And this article is likely to be seen by many more readers than the cycling press. Just don't want the world at large thinking we cycling fans don't give a toss about anyone but Armstrong.
Bautifully posed and arranged aren't they Doobz? - and totally homoerotic (which means, as a girl, they don't appeal to me one bit ) 0 -
No, no, no you lot.
Don't you realise that it's only the number of times you win the Tour, that counts.
Forget what else you might not ride, or the times you had to abandon the race.
Forget wars or the fact that some old guys completed loads, when the race was a lot longer.
As for the quality of the opposition? Don't go there. It's all irrelevant.
Keep it dead simple, don't try to confuse things with alternative thought processes.
Then just remember. As he's won 7 Tours and as you know, the Tour is the only race on the cycling calander, that automatically makes him the greatest rider.........ever!
Forget Eddy Marx, Fausto Copper, Jeano Bartilly, Brian Heenoe, Jock Anchortil or Manuel Induran. Who were these guys, anyway?
Haters! :roll:
"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Blazing Saddles wrote:No, no, no you lot.
Don't you realise that it's only the number of times you win the Tour, that counts.
Forget what else you might not ride, or the times you had to abandon the race.
Forget wars or the fact that some old guys completed loads, when the race was a lot longer.
As for the quality of the opposition? Don't go there. It's all irrelevant.
Keep it dead simple, don't try to confuse things with alternative thought processes.
Then just remember. As he's won 7 Tours and as you know, the Tour is the only race on the cycling calander, that automatically makes him the greatest rider.........ever!
Forget Eddy Marx, Fausto Copper, Jeano Bartilly, Brian Heenoe, Jock Anchortil or Manuel Induran. Who were these guys, anyway?
Haters! :roll:
If only you'd let the red mist clear, you might be able to read the OP. The question was about the TDF. I'm sure if he could, LA would have thrown in a couple of wars, and a second lap for good measure, just to make sure. I'm sure sure LA is gutted that he only won ... though I'm not sure what could be considered better ??? As for the quality of opposition, it's hard to assess, perhaps LA just made the opposition look ordinary. .. who said that, internet forum people ?0 -
T Mobile positives?
I can only remember Sinkewitz and that guy who won the TT a few years back, I forget his name.O na bawn i fel LA0 -
I think this was Iain's point. That all the big teams sailed through the doping tests for years.Meds1962 wrote:T Mobile positives?
I can only remember Sinkewitz and that guy who won the TT a few years back, I forget his name.
Riders were only really unlucky to get caught in doping controls, there was usually a cock-up in the dosage or strategy that allowed the UCI to catch them. In other words, passing a doping control sadly never meant a rider was clean, after all there was no test for EPO for a long time.0 -
Gonchar.
A case of an internal testing programme catching someone who'd evaded traditional controls for years? Not bad, eh, aurelio?Le Blaireau (1)0 -
Meds1962 wrote:T Mobile positives?
I can only remember Sinkewitz and that guy who won the TT a few years back, I forget his name.
And we know T-Mobile were doped to the gills throughout the late 90s and 2000's.
So USPS / Disco not having a positive is the same situation.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/?id=200 ... /apr07newsFckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
It is quite instructive to compare the palmares of Beloki, Ullrich and Basso - the main opposition in the Armstrong years - with Rominger, Zulle and Jalabert. The calibre of Armstrong's opposition is questionable - but it is hard to judge when increasingly riders prefer to train and prepare than get on the road and race.0
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rockmount wrote:OK so what you lot are saying, 7 consecutive TDF victories is a piece of p*ss (pun intended), in fact ANY one of the armchair experts here would, if they popped a proplus or two be capable of notching up 7,8,9 or more TDFs if they chose. I have to say, I had no idea I was in the midst of such greatness !!
(sigh) No, rockmount, nobody was saying anything like that at all. The OP asked if we believed that LA was the GREATEST TdF rider ever. Therefore, people like me take that as an invitation to answer yes or no. I answered no, like some others, and thought that maybe I would explain my reasoning.
Believing that other factors outweigh "he won it the most" does not mean that LA's achievement is being belittled, and that nobody thinks that he's a great.
Adjective: Great
Comparative: Greater
Superlative: Greatest0
