Which brakes for 35 mm tyres ?

fatandforty

Hi Guys (I've posted this on another forum so apols if you read it twice)

I'm going to build up a new bike for commuting & winter/wet weather rides.

The frame will be a Van Nich Amazon, 105 STI groupset & DT Swiss 1900 wheels.

The tyres will either be 32 or 35 mm and I don't know what brakes will fit - my cross bike with 35 mm tyres has froglegg brakes, but that is because of the potential for the build up of crud when off road - they are a paid to get set up and need regular adjustment.

For a road bike, what brakes will work with fat tyres and STI levers ? Ideally I would get dual pivot 105 brakes but I suspect that they won't fit.

Any opinions would be gratefully accepted....

P

John C.

Comuting, wet, winter, 35mm tyres why not go for a disc set up.

softlad

I don't think the Amazon will accept calipers - only cantilevers or v-brakes...

fatandforty

Hi John C
Will discs work with STI levers ? and if they will, does anyone have a recomendation for any particular disk set up ?

P.

softlad

aside from the fact that disks are not compatible with your chosen wheelset, I would personally avoid cable-operated disks and stick to cantis or v brakes...

fatandforty

Problems with cable operated disks ? care to enlighten me...

I assume that disk systems are heavier than canti's.....and probably more expensive ?

P

PHcp

Are you happy with the braking of your frogglegs?
The Tektro version use V brake pads and holders so are easier to set up. The braking is about the same.
http://www.dotbike.com/ProductsP5797.aspx?Track=FGL
They also come in black with a different product number

Using Koolstop Salmon pads with improve the braking a bit and the rims will last longer.
http://www.cyclesportsuk.co.uk/product_ ... ts_id=3305

softlad

cable operated disks do not really offer any better braking advantage than a good canti or v setup. Because most mechanical disk setups tend to be specced on low-end or entry-level MTBs, there are very few, if any 'quality' items available - and (speaking as a Van Nick owner myself) I think the frame deserves better than that..

fatandforty

So the consensus seems to be Canti or V.

As I understand it you need to mess about with an adapter to use V brakes with STI levers so that pushes me towards some form of Canti.

Any offers on the best ?

One of the options offered for a Van Nic Amazon is Shimano Cant BR-R550, are these any better (easier to set up, more reliable, higher braking ability) than the Tektros ?

Ta

P.

PHcp

fatandforty wrote:

So the consensus seems to be Canti or V.

Shimano Cant BR-R550, are these any better (easier to set up, more reliable, higher braking ability) than the Tektros ?

Ta

P.

No wide arm cantis are loads better.

John.T

If you are not using mudguards the the 105 dual pivot will fit unless the frame is built with extra clearance. Shimano and Tektro (among others) make deep drop versions which are 57mm instead of 49mm.
http://cycle.shimano-eu.com/publish/content/global_cycle/en/nl/index/products/road/non_series/product.-code-BR-R450.-type-br_road.html

fatandforty

John

As the main purpose of the bike is for commuting and winter/wet weather riding, then I'm afraid that mudguards are essential - which means that it'll be cantis.

The question is, which ones ?

Ta anyway

P.

Monty Dog

Whilst your choice of frame probably dictates your choice of brakes, please ignore what Softlad says about cable operated discs on road bikes - he clearly doesn't have any experience of decent cable discs like Avids. Canti and vees give horrible fork judder on most carbon forks - read any cross forums and there are numerous posts on the subject, whereas a disc gives exceptional power and control without judder. The downside is the weight and the need for special wheels - there's a number on people on here who do have experience of cable discs on road bikes and virtually all are 100% positive and the big advantage is that you don't wear out the rims and get great braking, regardless of the weather.

Monty Dog

Oh, on the subject of calipers - Shimano and Tektro make deep-drop 57mm calipers that should be OK for the job - depends on your fork and frame fittings

softlad

Monty Dog wrote:

please ignore what Softlad says about cable operated discs on road bikes - he clearly doesn't have any experience of decent cable discs like Avids. Canti and vees give horrible fork judder on most carbon forks - read any cross forums and there are numerous posts on the subject, whereas a disc gives exceptional power and control without judder.

here we go again.... :roll:

In my experience (and in my opinion) there's no such thing as a 'decent' cable disk brake. Cable disks might just about be passable on a lightweight cross bike where the rims are mostly wet and covered in mud anyway, but unless the OP is planning to ride cross (of which there is no mention) then that comment serves no useful purpose. I see no mention of 'carbon forks' in the OP either.

You cannot suggest someone's advice is ignored, simply because 'you' do not agree with it. The advice is valid and to suggest it is ignored when it is neither incorrect or materially unsafe is nothing short of arrogant.

Finally - there is little point suggesting any type of calipers for the Amazon frame - because there is no fitting for them. Disks, cantis or Vs only...

John C.

:oops: I only sugested looking a putting discs on, I don't want to start world war 3. My point being that IF I were building a comutor for wet riding in the winter, then I would know that the rims would probably not last very long, so why not look at the option of discs, or at least a disc on the front. I seem to remember cycling + did a test on one not long since.

John C.

http://www.konaworld.com/09_dewdrop_uk.cfm

check this out, shows how it's done

Monty Dog

I'm basing my comments on experience whereas your post seems to be more about opinion - have you ridden / owned a road/cross bike with discs and can you share that experience with us?

John C.

Monty Dog wrote:

I'm basing my comments on experience whereas your post seems to be more about opinion - have you ridden / owned a road/cross bike with discs and can you share that experience with us?

Not ridden one, it is opinion

softlad

Monty Dog wrote:

I'm basing my comments on experience whereas your post seems to be more about opinion - have you ridden / owned a road/cross bike with discs and can you share that experience with us?

My opinion is formed from my own experience - as is yours, I presume. I don't have a cross bike of any sort, but I have ridden cable/disk bikes (not mine) and found the braking performance and general mechanical condition of them to be well off what I would consider 'reasonable'. The information I volunteered was based on this 'experience'.

My opinion is mine - yours is yours. Difference is that I am not so smug as to tell everyone to ignore yours. However, if you want recognition as the forum's 'cleverest, most experienced commentator' then I will happily give way to your superior knowledge...

Incidentally, the only person talking about cross bikes here is you. It was not part of the OP's question...

fatandforty

Calm down gentlemen - it's only a question....

My own experience of canti's on a carbon forked cross bike is that juddering can be a problem under very heavy braking - particularly when the rims are dirty..if the rims are dirty enough, then juddering can be a problem under quite moderate, even gentle braking..

But back to the question under discussion - I suppose the factor that would drive me towards a front disk would be the likelihood of brake judder with canti or V brakes - does anybody out there own a Van Nich Amazon with the standard carbon fork who can enlighten me - is brake judder a problem or not ?

Ta

P.

softlad

fatandforty wrote:

does anybody out there own a Van Nich Amazon with the standard carbon fork who can enlighten me - is brake judder a problem or not ?

My father-in-law has an Amazon with carbon fork and cantis - he has never mentioned any issues with brake judder. If there had been a problem, I can't believe Van Nick would not address it...

fatandforty

Softlad
You've prbably got a point, the Amazon has been around for a while so any problems ought to have been sorted, never--the-less, I'm going to spend the thick end of £2K on this little project and I feel I need to know, so..................could I be so cheeky as to ask you to find out which carbon fork and canti brakes your fil has on his bike ?

Next time we meet - I'll buy you a pint - honest !

Ta

P.

softlad

just phoned him - he uses the standard VN carbon fork with TRP 'euro x' cantis. He did have Avid 'shorty 6' cantis, but couldn't get on with them - too fiddly or something...

hope that helps..

fatandforty

Thanks for that, the beers are on me....

I've had a look at the interweb and TRP euro x canti's are a bit like the avid, but easier to set up as they appear to come with an in-built cable adjuster....

Cheers matey

Pat

mtbhenry888

In my experience (and in my opinion) there's no such thing as a 'decent' cable disk brake.

i have had avid bb7's on my hardtail xc bike for a month now, they have great feel, modulation and loads of power, they are not fiddly to set up or tune like hydrualics and are pretty much fit and forget until they need small adjustments as the pads wear, no bleeding or split hoses

IMO avids are the ONLY cable disc that is worth it's salt for a decent bike, with good cables and decent lever (i have avid speeddial 7's) they can cost over £110 but well worth it for an mtb, commuter or cross bike

i would buy a bike for commuting/cross with cable discs anyday

fatandforty

Just when it looks like the answers fairly clear cut,somebody come along and upsets the apple cart...

mtbhenry, do you know if avid bb7's will work with road STI levers ?

P.

fatandforty

Double post deleted.

Ken Night

There has been plenty of debate about discs on road bikes already-search for "disc braked crosser" with Monty's name as author, or indeed mine

I won't rehearse the arguments here, except where they apply to the OP's Q. It does appear those of us with a disc braked road bike
a) have plenty of bikes to choose from, and therefore some objectivity
b) are prepared to recommend the disc braked option

With 35mm tyres, the case for discs becomes more cogent

Yes you can run discs with STIs-Both Shimano and Avid make a version specifically for them

The Amazon is a really nice frame. The angles are forgiving, the ride sublime, and the clearances large-you can get 35mm knobblies in, should you wish

The canti judder problem may have been fixed-I suffered it terribly on the forerunner of the Amazon

The weight penalty of discs is something to think about-justifiable IMHO-if you want light, forget them

Several manufacturers have a disc braked road bike Orbea.Focus, Kona, Trek Everti (google the Everti, to see one of the best looking bikes you'll ever seen)

Many urban bikes have discs-very practical, so why not on a drop barred bike

I commuted in the Devon lanes for a year and ruined a pair of rims, must be the same in other parts?

I believe the next generation of road specific discs will be better and lighter

PapaZita

I've got Avid BB7 discs on an Amazon, and am very happy with them. Very nice all-weather performance. Avid make a version, the "BB7 Road" which is specifically designed for use with road levers.

There are/were a few problems, but nothing insurmountable:

- Not quite enough chainstay clearance for a 160mm disc. Fine with a 140mm disc.
- My first bike with discs, and it took me a while to get the setup tweaked. Good quality cables helped. Easy now I know what I'm doing.
- Limited choice of forks, and disc forks may be heavier than non-disc.
- Brakes themselves are a bit heavy.
- Different lever feel than calipers of cantis. I'm not sure I'd be happy with a disc at the front and something else at the back. Once I'd accepted that the levers would feel different to STIs with calipers, the setup became much easier.

If I had to build this bike again I'd get the same brakes.

PZ.

John C.

I didn't set out to start an argument, I just thought I would put another option forward. If it's made you look at the disc option then fine but in no way was I forcing you down this road.