Tiagra > Sora & 105 >Tiagra & Ultegra > 105

DonDaddyD
DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
edited January 2009 in Commuting chat
The point was raised in another thread of mine but I felt the point needed to be discussed futher.

Is there much difference between the shifting of

Sora and Tiagra?

Tiagra and 105?

105 and Ultegra?

(The law of diminishing returns for me would mean that I would get no extra benefit on my current commute from an Ultegra groupset over a Sora groupset).

But generally of the above what is the difference except price and weight?
Food Chain number = 4

A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
«1

Comments

  • Littigator
    Littigator Posts: 1,262
    Shifting is quicker and crisper with the more expensive groupsets
    Roadie FCN: 3

    Fixed FCN: 6
  • biondino
    biondino Posts: 5,990
    Sora has a different shifting system, more like Campag, where there's a lever AND a button for shifting. I have heard the button is in an inconvenient place and in any case I like the shifting system used by Tiagra upwards, which (correct me if I'm wrong) all work in the same way - although my Tiagra is 9-speed.

    I have Tiagra shifters on the Trek and Dura-Ace on the Focus so it's not surprising there's a difference, but the Tiagra ones (which are bigger, bulkier and heavier) seem to work pretty much fine, albeit without the smoothness and immediacy of Dura-Ace. NB the rear mech is 105 and again it works fine.
  • Jamey
    Jamey Posts: 2,152
    Does it depend a bit on the individual part as well?

    I got told that there's no point spending superbucks on a front mech because the nature of front-gear shifting means there physically isn't any better way of doing it than you get with the cheaper mechs.
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    edited January 2009
    Littigator wrote:
    Shifting is quicker and crisper with the more expensive groupsets

    Ok,

    But is there any real difference between Tiagra and 105? Or Ultegra and 105?

    In my experience its always been the front mech that gives trouble shifting poorly, slow or not at all.... :shock:
    Sora has a different shifting system, more like Campag, where there's a lever AND a button for shifting. I have heard the button is in an inconvenient place and in any case I like the shifting system used by Tiagra upwards, which (correct me if I'm wrong) all work in the same way - although my Tiagra is 9-speed.

    The Sora shifter is perfect if you ride on the hoods and inaccessible (unless you have extremely long fingers and are double jointed) when down on the drops.

    I can't say how the shifters affect the mech but my Tiagra rear mech is fairly smooth and quick as in a sec - 2 seconds after pressing the button the gear has changed. Up shifter is a little different.
    I have Tiagra shifters on the Trek and Dura-Ace on the Focus so it's not surprising there's a difference, but the Tiagra ones (which are bigger, bulkier and heavier) seem to work pretty much fine, albeit without the smoothness and immediacy of Dura-Ace. NB the rear mech is 105 and again it works fine.

    Interesting to hear how the Tiagra and Dura-Ace mechs compare in the field, you'd hope their is a huge difference.
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • biondino
    biondino Posts: 5,990
    Hmm not sure that's true, Jamey - there's a world of difference between my Tiagra front mech and my Ultegra front mech in terms of performance, both the efficiency of the shift, the lack (or otherwise) of chain rub, the trim, and the regularity of de-chaining. Of course some of this may be to do with set-up, wear, dirt etc. In any case I managed to bend my Ultegra mech in the Isle of Wight so I'm getting a Dura-Ace one to replace it :)
  • biondino
    biondino Posts: 5,990
    DDD - there is not enough difference between the performance of Tiagra, 105 and Ultegra for you to justify upgrading, no.
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    biondino wrote:
    DDD - there is not enough difference between the performance of Tiagra, 105 and Ultegra for you to justify upgrading, no.

    Oh god no I don't want to upgrade, I'm actually happy with my Sora shifter, and Tiagra rear mech. The Sora front mech... after the chain fell off with me clipped in and 'spinning' I simply leave that one alone....

    I'm just curious as to whether there is a noticable diffence between the shifting of Ultegra and 105 mechs and 105 and Tiagra mechs. If there isn't shouldn't we all be commuting and racing on Tiagra's since they offer the best value for money, economies, avoidance of law of diminishing returns... etc.

    Also curious as to how (if they are the same mechanism) a Tiagra and 105 shifter differs from an Ultegra shifter?
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • Jamey
    Jamey Posts: 2,152
    Yeah, I'd be interested to know too. I'd expect the higher-end models to be lighter but what's mechanically different?
  • gtvlusso
    gtvlusso Posts: 5,112
    Hiya,

    I noticed a massive difference between my Ultegra bike and my mates Tiagra bike - mine was much quicker to shift and smoother on the changes. Noticed a massive difference again between Dura Ace (on my Cervelo - now gone) and my Ultegra bike too. Component weight, materials used + strength of materials - springs and maybe even the way the teeth are formed on the sprockets and rings........Dura Ace is super smooth and very light.

    Who knows - costs a bob or 2 though. I would like to compare SRAM and Campag too, but I am not nerdy enough.....yet!
  • girv73
    girv73 Posts: 842
    Add me to the "interested" list, as I'm currently trying to find a very cheap road bike for general use (until I can save up for a Roubaix or C2C).

    LBS guy told me that Sora doesn't work too well so I've been looking at Tiagra (or equivalent) as a minimum standard. Any comments on that?
    Today is a good day to ride
  • gtvlusso
    gtvlusso Posts: 5,112
    girv73 wrote:
    Add me to the "interested" list, as I'm currently trying to find a very cheap road bike for general use (until I can save up for a Roubaix or C2C).

    LBS guy told me that Sora doesn't work too well so I've been looking at Tiagra (or equivalent) as a minimum standard. Any comments on that?

    Good man!

    I would probably bag for Tiagra minimum, but remember groupsets wear out and can be easily upgraded, unless you are going from 9 speed to 10 speed and then you have to do some cable trickery.....So, go for 10 speed if possible. You can get some bargain Bianchi's and Boardman Comps on Ebay.
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    girv73 wrote:
    Add me to the "interested" list, as I'm currently trying to find a very cheap road bike for general use (until I can save up for a Roubaix or C2C).

    LBS guy told me that Sora doesn't work too well so I've been looking at Tiagra (or equivalent) as a minimum standard. Any comments on that?

    Sora shifters fine. Never had a Sora rear mech. Sora front mech, is a weapon of mass destruction. Shifting on it, for me has always felt like I'm leaving what happens next to chance.

    (Probably go for the Roubaix personally. I think Bianchi's look horrid compared to their 2008 love god looks)
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • girv73
    girv73 Posts: 842
    gtvlusso wrote:
    You can get some bargain Bianchi's and Boardman Comps on Ebay.

    Not for my budget :) Chain Reaction have a full 105 alu bike with carbon forks for £499 right now (BeOne Storm 1), but the CFO has vetoed that purchase in favour of something called a "kit shen". I might be able to get a £200 bike approved, but that's probably the upper limit. There's a few older bikes on eBay that could fit the bill, it's a matter of keeping my eyes and auction sniper open I guess.

    This would be an occasional summer commuter and for doing longer training and social rides (see the "2009 goals thread :) )

    I figured Tiagra would be the minimum standard I could live with. I know it's 9 speed, but this machine most likely wouldn't be upgraded anyway, rather it would be replaced when I get the cash together for something more impressive.
    Today is a good day to ride
  • I rarely see the fact in these sort of threads that it is the higher and more expensive groupsets that get the "new technology" such as more gear options eg. the new Chorus having the 11-speed system ;)
    ================
    2020 Voodoo Marasa
    2017 Cube Attain GTC Pro Disc 2016
    2016 Voodoo Wazoo
  • itboffin
    itboffin Posts: 20,062
    I know there's a weight saving and improved performance between these groupsets but at my level and current cycling experience I'm not sure i'd really benefit, i've upgraded as parts wear or new projects dictate, I'd have to lose a hell of lot of body weight and train a lot harder before I'll consider spending top end kind of money.

    Sounds like a new 'goal' to me :wink:
    Rule #5 // Harden The Feck Up.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.
    Rule #12 // The correct number of bikes to own is n+1.
    Rule #42 // A bike race shall never be preceded with a swim and/or followed by a run.
  • biondino
    biondino Posts: 5,990
    Quick side question - how easy is it to change and set up a new front derailleur? Is it even worth thinking I could do it myself (having never done so before) or should I get a shop to do it?
  • itboffin
    itboffin Posts: 20,062
    biondino wrote:
    Quick side question - how easy is it to change and set up a new front derailleur? Is it even worth thinking I could do it myself (having never done so before) or should I get a shop to do it?

    Very so long as your not over extending the max T settings, the little height stickers that come with Shimano are surprisingly easy, i've done it several times with no issues but make sure you get the correct top or bottom pull replacements and the right clamp size, although most shimano models come with shims.

    It's a 10 min job.
    Rule #5 // Harden The Feck Up.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.
    Rule #12 // The correct number of bikes to own is n+1.
    Rule #42 // A bike race shall never be preceded with a swim and/or followed by a run.
  • biondino
    biondino Posts: 5,990
    I have a braze-on.
  • itboffin
    itboffin Posts: 20,062
    biondino wrote:
    I have a braze-on.

    Direct to the frame or via an adapter?
    Rule #5 // Harden The Feck Up.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.
    Rule #12 // The correct number of bikes to own is n+1.
    Rule #42 // A bike race shall never be preceded with a swim and/or followed by a run.
  • biondino
    biondino Posts: 5,990
    How dare you sir!

    (I don't know. I emailed Wiggle to confirm what I had and they didn't mention an adaptor. I guess I'd find out when I take the old one off?)
  • Blondie, I clearly have no useful knowledge about this but these sites might:

    http://bicycletutor.com/

    http://www.bicycling.com/topic/0,6614,s ... -0,00.html

    I find them quite good how-to things, where Sheldon (RIP) although incredibly knowledgeable and informative can be a bit hard to understand for me. Please note I'm not dissing the great man, it's not him, it's me.
  • i'd certinaly go with all font mechs are fairly rought changers which is why old red still has the suntour front derailer though half decent rear mechs seem worth the money.
  • biondino
    biondino Posts: 5,990
    Well, I'm fine spending £38 on a Dura-Ace one (to match the rest of the DA equipment on the Focus - having one single Ultegra item let the side down :) ), it's just fitting it that concerns me a little! If I had a try, and failed, would I be likely to have ballsed anything up?

    Oh, another question - should I get new cables?
  • passout
    passout Posts: 4,425
    Sora is durable but not as precise or crisp. There are relatively few differences the higher up you go. I'd go for 105.
    'Happiness serves hardly any other purpose than to make unhappiness possible' Marcel Proust.
  • itboffin
    itboffin Posts: 20,062
    biondino wrote:
    Well, I'm fine spending £38 on a Dura-Ace one (to match the rest of the DA equipment on the Focus - having one single Ultegra item let the side down :) ), it's just fitting it that concerns me a little! If I had a try, and failed, would I be likely to have ballsed anything up?

    Oh, another question - should I get new cables?

    If you damage the braze-on bracket holes it's not the end of the world you can always use slightly larger screws, mmmm DA all over yummy.

    Yes change the cables, those are the only part of my bike that is DA :cry:
    Rule #5 // Harden The Feck Up.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.
    Rule #12 // The correct number of bikes to own is n+1.
    Rule #42 // A bike race shall never be preceded with a swim and/or followed by a run.
  • gtvlusso
    gtvlusso Posts: 5,112
    biondino wrote:
    Well, I'm fine spending £38 on a Dura-Ace one (to match the rest of the DA equipment on the Focus - having one single Ultegra item let the side down :) ), it's just fitting it that concerns me a little! If I had a try, and failed, would I be likely to have ballsed anything up?

    Oh, another question - should I get new cables?

    Bio,

    Mechs are a piece of cake to change - don't over tighten though on carbon frames, use a torque wrench and be very careful!!! Usually held on with a band (brazed to the band) and shims - should be like for like with Ultegra mech - not many are brazed to the frame (as you may change your chainset size and need to shift the mech up or down a bit).

    As for cables - it is a fecking art!! You will need new grip tape if you are doing the brake cables or have hidden gear cables (not usual on Shimano). Can be a fun job - I have got it down to an hour. Buy more ferrules too as you never get enough in the DA brake or gear packs - 5mm I think. Remember to keep the old outers and mark where they are for as a template for curring the new cables (remove the inner cable before you cut through the sheath too!!!!!!!!!) Make sure you have some electrical tape too - helps you pull the cables and tape them to the handlebars before you grip tape them!

    Enjoy and have a satisfying cup of tea when done. Cinelli grip tape is great stuff and comes in lots of colours!
  • nwallace
    nwallace Posts: 1,465
    Notice a bit of a difference between my Tiagra 9-speed and Sora 7 speed shifters, the location of the down shifter is the obvious one, the component material feels different too. The Sora being much more plasticy than the Tiagra and with a less convincing motion.

    Though the Sora bike is full Sora the Tiagra levered is shifting a Deore rear mech.
    Do Nellyphants count?

    Commuter: FCN 9
    Cheapo Roadie: FCN 5
    Off Road: FCN 11

    +1 when I don't get round to shaving for x days
  • iain_j
    iain_j Posts: 1,941
    gtvlusso wrote:
    As for cables - it is a fecking art!!

    I made a minor adjustment to my front mech last night - the outer edge has been trailing on the chain for a while so I thought easy, just pull in a bit of slack on the cable.

    How the f*ck is a two-handed person meant to do it? Unless I was missing something I needed one hand to hold the mech in place, another hand to hold the cable in place, and a third hand to tighten the nut. I'm not a f*cking clock!

    Sheesh 24 hours later and it's still got me fuming :lol::lol:
  • cjcp
    cjcp Posts: 13,345
    When I finally wear out my Ultegra kit on the commuter, I'll probably change to 105 to keep the cost down. I very much doubt I'll notice a material difference.

    Re the front mech, the braze on is welded to the frame. Fitting the front mech proved to be such a balls-ache, then I've left it off (see picture in the link below). It was 2am when I attempted it, lost patience when the mech kept shifting in the braze on and it's still not been fitted 10 months on. Might have another go sometime soon.
    FCN 2-4.

    "What happens when the hammer goes down, kids?"
    "It stays down, Daddy."
    "Exactly."
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    cjcp wrote:
    When I finally wear out my Ultegra kit on the commuter, I'll probably change to 105 to keep the cost down. I very much doubt I'll notice a material difference.

    The impression I'm beginning to get is that there isn't much difference between the products in each range.

    Not much difference between Sora and Tiagra. 105 and Ultegra and not much difference between Ultegra and Dura Ace. There is however a notable difference in quality between Sora - 105 - Dura Ace.

    If that's the case then sound logic would mean that the product in the middle of the range (105) would give best return for the money.

    (Or as Wiggle have done with the Kiron Scandium offer a bike with 105 shifters, Ultegra rear mech and a Dura Ace front mech.... best of all worlds perhaps?)
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game