Upgrade to Campagnolo Shamal Ultras?

ziggy.mcd
ziggy.mcd Posts: 66
edited January 2009 in Workshop
I'd like to upgrade the Mavic Aksium's on my Bianchi 928 Carbon and have been looking at clinchers in the price range of £500 to £650.

My short list, (although I'm still open to others), includes the following; Campagnolo Shamal Ultra, DT Swiss R1450 Mon Chasseral and Shimano Dura Ace 7850.

The Dura Ace seems to have been well recieved in reviews but availability seems to be patchy.

I've seen DT swiss products and they look very well made.

I haven't heard much about the Shamal Ultras and was curious to hear from anyone who has experience of them?

I don't expect any of the above to be weak products, but I'm concerned that by going lighter I might be buying into high maintenance. I'm aiming for a worthwhile upgrade without going delicate.

Your thoughts are welcomed.
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Comments

  • I'm pretty much in the same boat

    Dura Ace look good BUT not sure about availailty

    DT look good, but not sure about the high spoke count (against the others)

    Reynolds Attack ?

    Fulcrum Zero and Ones can be found in that price range .. they LOOK and review good
  • gkerr4
    gkerr4 Posts: 3,408
    i have the Eurus which are one model down - the same wheels but with alloy hubs over the shamals carbon. I got them about a year ago for £360 from ribble everything seems to have multiplied in cost since then!

    they are rock solid wheels - really really stiff with excellent bearings and they weigh bugger all! I;m very impressed but I wonder if I would have got a better ride comfort with neutron ultras which were about the same price.

    shamals are nice!
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,665
    I run the DA wheels and have had no problems (I'm 90kgs). They ride wonderfully smooth.
    As for the DTs, they will probably take my weight even better due to higher spoke count and look quite pimp, but are heavier than the others.
    The Shamals, however, look very 'pro' and, I am told by a fellow clubman, are rather grand too, but due to construction may be more harsh a ride than the others.

    I think whichever you choose you will be very very happy.

    I had Aksiums and, whilst I extoll their virtues of sturdiness, they felt like lead weights when climbing compared to the DA wheels!

    Anyhoo, an excuse to post a (strangely dark) pic of my bike :)

    Look3.jpg

    This one was before seatpost and handlebar adjustments but I suppose it shows how the wheels look a bit better...

    Look2.jpg

    The carbon marble finish looks great but they are more subtle than the DTs or the Shamals. If Campy did the Shamals in black then I would have had those probably.
  • I borrowed a pair for a couple of weeks and I rate them. Nicer to climb on than my 'normal' Eurus, but if I was allowed only 1 pair of wheels I's still settle for Neutrons as these give a more comfortable ride. I'm well over Campag's 80kg rider limit and have not experienced any problems with their wheels other than a popped spoke which was the result of a 'car loading incident'. The hubs on all 3 are Record quality so you can't go wrong as long as you give them a little squirt of grease

    The downside of Campagnolo wheels is getting a tyre to fit.

    Don't ignore handbuilt wheels - at your budget a good wheelbuilder will be able to construct something wonderful for you.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,665
    Further to what GG above has said, I recently got a Powertap built on a Mavic Open Pro that I'm using on my Winter/Training bike. It's bloomin' ace to the point where I am going to have a front built, just deciding on the hub.

    A set of Mavic Open Pros with decent hubs will be cheaper than the factory wheels, pretty darn light and be bombproof / easily repairable.
  • Re: Custom Builds

    My LBS did suggest; DT swiss hubs with Mavic rims, but I was skeptical that a small workshop could produce a better wheel than the big factories. I can understand that some people might want something specific making a custom wheel viable, but can a work shop buy in the parts and produce something as good as/better than the factory product for similar money?

    The other problem is that this opens the options up still further, how do you go about specifying?
  • redddraggon
    redddraggon Posts: 10,862
    ziggy.mcd wrote:
    but can a work shop buy in the parts and produce something as good as/better than the factory product for similar money?

    Definitely, if the wheelbuilder is good.
    I like bikes...

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  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,665
    Very much so, as long as the wheel builder is reputable.

    I will be racing on my Open Pros.
  • Good shortlist but the best option will depend on:

    i) your weight
    ii) intended use and terrain you typically ride - club rides, individual training, sportives, racing
    iii) groupset. On a Bianchi the DA wheels would be a slightly strange combination but since you have them on the list I assume you're running a Shimano groupset (or intend to use a Marchisio or similar bodge cassette)
    iv) riding style - are you a masher or spinner for example

    Neutron Ultras are also worth considering without knowing any of the above!
  • El Tel
    El Tel Posts: 63
    I've had a couple of (rear) spokes go on Neutron Ultras (I'm a bit under 80kg). I now carry some spares in the seat tube....
    El Tel
    Ribble Nero Corsa
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    ziggy.mcd wrote:
    Re: Custom Builds

    ......... but can a work shop buy in the parts and produce something as good as/better than the factory product for similar money?

    The other problem is that this opens the options up still further, how do you go about specifying?

    A good wheel builder can build you a set of "as good/better" for much less than comparable factory wheels.

    Look for sales on DA, Record, DT 240 hubs and you will end up with a set that will
    be every bit as good as "factory".

    Or get into building your own and save even more. And if something does go wrong with them you can fix it or build another set.

    Dennis Noward
  • Monty Dog
    Monty Dog Posts: 20,614
    I beg to differ - I have both factory and handbuilt wheels and wouldn't say that one is better than the other because they are designed for different purposes. Whilst Open Pro rims can be built up pretty light - mine are Record hubs and DT Rev spokes - they are comfortable, reliable training/racing wheels but simply are not as stiff or as strong as something like a Shamal, Fulcrum 1 or Ksyrium SLs IME. The factory wheels are significantly firmer riding too - OK I'm only 65kg and giving it a 'kick' in a race or riding on rough roads, overly stiff wheels bounce all over the place. But if riding smooth tarmac or climbing, the factory wheels feel far more responsive. Factory wheels from reputable makes are typically built with a higher degree with tolerance than your LBS could ever manage - most people with factory wheels find they rarely need attention - I have some Ksyrium SLs need the end of their life and whilst i check them regularly, I only needed to adjust the bearings on the front once in 5 years. Check out what what people are riding at local races and 90% will be on factory wheels - and these guys pay for their kit.
    Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    Monty Dog wrote:
    Check out what what people are riding at local races and 90% will be on factory wheels - and these guys pay for their kit.

    Couldn't agree more. You're right about the 90%. Definately holds true here at our local race club. Then again Rolf Prima is our major sponsor and he always gives the guys really good deals and 90% of them use his wheels and why not. I think that the main reason for seeing so many factory wheels out there is that lots of races have never done any kind of work on their bikes, other than lubing and maybe a few other minor things. One of our clubs top racers can't adjust his rear mech. and lots of the other guys
    aren't good mechanics either. Oh, they all have the latest in everything but most of the work goes to the local shop or the clubs President, who used to work in a bike shop.
    Seems like someone always calls him over to look at a "problem" at our weekly races.
    So it doesn't surprise me that most people go for the bling and ad hype. Me??? I'm just saying that "if you wanted to" you can build or have built a fine set of wheels for half the price.

    Dennis Noward
  • James,

    In response to your list;

    i) My weight 80kg
    ii) Used mostly for individulal training
    iii) Shimano groupset
    iv) Riding style, more of a spinner

    To be honest, I'm unlikely to challenge any wheel in this price range, but as I'm in need of a new back wheel, (due to damage to the rim), it seemed like a good excuse to upgrade.

    Spoke with the owner of the LBS who sold me the Bianchi yesterday and posed the same query to him.

    He was keen on Mavic Ksyriums, (another to add to thhe list).

    Knowing the above, I asked if he could recommend a custom build, I'll wait too see what he comes up with.
  • James_London
    James_London Posts: 530
    edited January 2009
    Okay... That helps! Firstly, none of them are bad choices, though some are slightly better than others.

    DT Swiss and 7850s will be quite similar - relatively comfortable due to the higher spoke count/ thinner spokes and 7850 rim construction. Shamal or Ksyrium are no stiffer but feel more direct because of the lower spoke count and/or thicker spokes.

    So the DT Swiss Mon Chasserals may be a little fragile for 80kg - at least the rear which is 28 spoke. I know a few people who've had trouble with them. I'm not sure if they use the single or double eyelet version of the R1.1 rims but the single eyelet version on the rear is risky. Saw them on offer at CRC I think.

    DA 7850 carbon/alloy will ride similarly to the DT Swiss and be relatively comfortable. The hubs are excellent. The fact Shimano have recently advised using rim tape now makes me slightly nervous that the new rim construction isn't fully tried and tested but that might be overcautious but otherwise a solid choice.

    Shamals are more aero and have nice carbon hubs if the Titanium colour works with the rest of your bike. They're slightly harsher than the two above and pretty stiff. Ksyriums are similar and your LBS will recommend them because they are a no-brainer choice but in my opinion overpriced for what they are.

    You could also have a set built - something like DA/Ultegra/DT Swiss 240s hubs with Mavic Open Pro rims or DT Swiss R1.1/R1.2 rims and DT Swiss Aerolites or Revolution spokes. That would allow you to have a 32 spoke rear which would be better at 80kg. These would be a cheaper but slightly more robust alternative to the DT 1450s. As has been said, handbuilts can need tweaking but if your LBS builds them you can take them back to true or re-tension them or do it yourself without too much bother.

    In terms of value for money and matching your Shimano groupset and bike (which I am assuming is the black and red one?) the 7850s would be a good match I'd say but any of them would be excellent performers. If I put them in order of overall preference, I'd say

    - DA 7850
    - Neutron Ultra (not discussed but an awesome wheel - stiff, comfortable and aero)
    - Shamal Ultra
    - Ksyrium SL (preferably Premiums)
    - DT Swiss MC 1450

    Black Fulcrum Racing 1s might also look good and perform similarly to the Ksyriums and Shamals. Rich-Ti has a pair on the Road Classifieds and you could swap the freehub easily to Shimano. If you chose a Shamal/Ksyrium/R1, the slightly harsher ride can be compensated for with some more supple tyres run at 100 PSI front and rear - the higher threadcount Vittorias make a big difference over say GP4000S.

    Anyway, just my two pence! Have fun deciding and let us know where you come out...
  • steve23
    steve23 Posts: 2,202
    i ride shamals and man they are such a good wheel!!!

    used them all last season for road racing and they are great!

    back wheel needed the bearings tightening - slightly, but that was after a few harsh races where the roads where in really bad condition!

    light, stiff, spin up quick!!! im 82kg and they dont flex hardly at all when im sprinting like mad!!!

    plus, they look cool!!!
    _______________________________________________________________________________________
    If You Can't Cut It With The Big Dogs, Then Don't Pi$$ Up The Tall Trees!
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,665
    Just to re-iterate, I'm 90kg and have had no problems whatsoever with my Shimano DA 7850s.

    I've also just ordered my new front to go with my powertap rear and can't wait - I've gone for Mavic OP in black, black DT spokes and a black Tune Mig 70 hub.

    Well impressed with the rear Open Pro.
  • Thanks to this thread my girl friend had enough of me talking about wheels SO forced me to order some shamals .... thanks guys :D
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    Thanks to this thread my girl friend had enough of me talking about wheels SO forced me to order some shamals .... thanks guys :D


    So, that's the secret. Talk about it so much that wife/girlfriend simply caves in. How long
    does something like that take(I know it must vary with the women) but just a general
    idea? Any help in this area is most welcome.

    dennis noward
  • gkerr4
    gkerr4 Posts: 3,408
    Thanks to this thread my girl friend had enough of me talking about wheels SO forced me to order some shamals .... thanks guys :D

    a top result - well done mate

    and make sure you get some pictures up with the new wheels!
  • James, Thank you for your comprehensive run down on the wheels "in the frame", it helps a lot as I'm never going to get to try them all, let alone come to any conclusive conclusion.

    I note your comments on the 1450's and on compliance in the tyres for the firmer riding wheels.

    I'm warming to the idea of a good hub and Mavic open pros, I'll see how much my LBS wants for building them. I assume you can combine DT Swiss 240s or Campag Record with the Mavic rims? Although I recon this open may end up heavier than the DA's or Shamal's.

    Spacemonkeys, I'm glad some good has come from our discussion, I took the missus to the LBS as I find that discussing things in the open including money softens the blow when I discreetly announce "I've ordered those wheels, you know, the silver ones with the red spokes".

    I'll let you know how things turn out.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,665
    Result!

    Need pictures when fitted now :)

    You can use most hubs with OP (as long as they do at least a 28 hole option...)
  • gkerr4 wrote:
    i have the Eurus which are one model down - the same wheels but with alloy hubs over the shamals carbon. I got them about a year ago for £360 from ribble everything seems to have multiplied in cost since then!

    they are rock solid wheels - really really stiff with excellent bearings and they weigh bugger all! I;m very impressed but I wonder if I would have got a better ride comfort with neutron ultras which were about the same price.

    shamals are nice!

    I agree with your commendation of the Eurus, though there is more difference between the Eurus and Shamal that you describe. The Shamals also have a lighter rim and thinner spokes and are slightly less stiff than the Eurus.

    They also weigh between 150g and 200g less.

    Couple of other thoughts - DA are unproven and have a thinner rim wall than the other wheels. This would concern me in the mountains. I'd rather wait another year while others beta test them.

    Shamals are easier to get tyres onto than Neutrons and other Campagnolo wheels. No idea why but they are. I can get PR3 tyres on with thumbs only.

    I like the neutron ultra as a more comfortable alternative and more traditional look.

    Agree with Montydog that the handbuilt wheel thing is overrated though they can be very nice to ride.
  • Shamals are easier to get tyres onto than Neutrons and other Campagnolo wheels. No idea why but they are. I can get PR3 tyres on with thumbs only.

    I agree. I'd put it down to the lack of rim tape on the Shamals
    Agree with Montydog that the handbuilt wheel thing is overrated though they can be very nice to ride.

    Agree. They're certainly an option to consider but performance wise there's no magic to handbuilts.
  • one other thought is that big spokes really catch the side-winds. this is the one thing i really don't like about shamals. i would imagine, based on having ridden other 16spoke shimano front wheels, that the DA7850s are much better in this regard.

    if you don't want to risk the thin rim wall, what about the standard 7850SL ... just over 1500g and all the other DuraAce benefits
  • Simon Notley
    Simon Notley Posts: 1,263
    Good choice with the Shamals, I have a set as my racing wheels and think they're great. For some reason, they don't get the publicity that some other makes/models do but I know a number of people that ride them and love them. I also noticed that a lot of the second-tier pro squads ride them, particularly for mountain stages.

    I recommend Conti GP 4000S (not the 4000, the 4000S) for tyres.

    Enjoy!
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,665
    The actual braking surface of the rim on the 7850's is the same as the other wheels, the 'thin' bit is actually, according the shimano anyhoo, stronger than a normal aluminium rim...
  • NapoleonD wrote:
    The actual braking surface of the rim on the 7850's is the same as the other wheels, the 'thin' bit is actually, according the shimano anyhoo, stronger than a normal aluminium rim...

    Are you sure? Shimano describe the rim as extra thin. The braking surface might be the same but it's the width of the rim and the consequent transfer of heat to the tyre bead that is the issue.
  • Of the factory wheels the DAs seem to have it on weight, cost and rave reviews, I guess the concern at the back of my mind has been the technical looking rims and the risk of delamination between the aluminium and carbon sections.

    On a slightly different issue, my LBS seems much keener on hubs with sealed bearings rather than traditional loose bearing types, presumably with both Campagnolo and Shimano using the later there is no issue here?

    Same outfit that was pushing the Mavic route rather than Campagnolo. (Sells both)
  • Thooms
    Thooms Posts: 66
    On the subject of the Open Pro handbuilts, I'm thinking of getting some new wheels built over the next few months.

    Given budget constraints, I'm thinking of going with 2007 Centaur hubs (if I can still get them in a few months...) with DT Comp spokes - which I think should give me a nice pair of wheels at a good price.

    There has been a lot of mention of Tune and DT hubs here, which are an awful lot more pricey than the Centaur hubs. Would the higher performance bearings and slightly lighter weight really be that noticable?

    To the OP, comgrats on the Shamals! I'm very jealous :D