New cassette with new chain?

wilwil
wilwil Posts: 374
edited November 2008 in Workshop
Due to ongoing – from new – front changing issues, I want to try a KMC chain.

The bike's done about 1200 miles, do I also need to change the cassette and chainrings?

The problems include chain suck and all occur when changing from big ring to small ring.

One possibly is that I may have ruined the chain by cleaning it in Citrus degreaser.
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Comments

  • Rudd
    Rudd Posts: 264
    You may well need a new cassette. I replaced a chain once and not the cassette and got about 2 mins down the road to find impossibly slippnig gears. I had to return to LBS and get new casette. It depends though of course on the extent of use. ie for me the chain had about 1000 miles but being mostly ridden on the flat i hadn't really changed gear that much ie more wear on one gear than others. If you are on a budget i would see how just a new chain works - you might be fine.
  • Measure the old chain, 12 links (inner and outer) should measure 12" if it actuall measures around an 1/8th more than that you'll need a new cassette. If you're getting a lot of chainsuck you might also want new rings at the same time.
  • In fact, check the mech is set up right, could just be not throwing the chain across smoothly, wind the inboard stop out a little bit to see if it moves a little more and is a bit happier.
  • I'd second that. Just plan a shortish ride with lots of shifting to test out the new chain before heading off on an epic ride.
    With only 1200 miles on a road bike, I'd expect you to be OK - it's very unlikely the chainrings will be an issue - even on an MTB I usually get through 3-4 chains and cassettes before needing to change a chainring.
  • peanut
    peanut Posts: 1,373
    a new cassette is about £20.00 :roll: cheaper probably than a new chain ...whats the issue ? Your chain must be seriously degraded if you are getting significant chainsuck on the chainrings . I've never heard of such a thing. How supple is the chain in your hand ? Take it off the rings and finger it. The links should be silky loose and flexible.
    I would be inclined to look carefully at your front mech first as that seems to be part of the issue
  • wilwil
    wilwil Posts: 374
    In fact, check the mech is set up right, could just be not throwing the chain across smoothly, wind the inboard stop out a little bit to see if it moves a little more and is a bit happier.
    I'm pretty sure the mech is set right. The chain comes off the top of the ring fine but then doesn't always release at the bottom of the ring and gets sucked round. This is exacerbated when the chain is on the smallest 5 sprockets.
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    I don't subscribe to the theory of new chain - new cassette. The idea seems to be
    pushed more by bike part marketers than any real evidence that it's necessary.
    I don't do it and have not had problems.

    Dennis Noward
  • peanut
    peanut Posts: 1,373
    difficult to know without seeing it but it does rather sound as though you are changing down at the front when you have too bigger angle with the rear sprocket.
    This can be caused by a number of things not least of which is the axle length which if correct should position your chainrings in line with the centre of your cassette.
    Try putting the chain in the centre of your cassette and on the big ring and eyeing the alighnment of the chain from behind or above the bike.
    How well does it change down to the small chain ring in this position?
  • peanut
    peanut Posts: 1,373
    It would be helpful to have a side on picture with your chain on the big chainring and on the middle sprocket at the rear so we can see your rear mech cage position and chain length is correct
  • Big Red S
    Big Red S Posts: 26,890
    I'd be hesitant about blaming the chain for it - generally chain damage that causes chainsuck is quite intermittent (since you normally only damage one bit of it at a time).

    Does it _always_ happen, or only at specific points in the crank's cycle (bear in mind that most people have a pedal position at which they do most of their shifting)? Try rotating the chainring about the cranks and see if it changes anything.
  • wilwil
    wilwil Posts: 374
    peanut wrote:
    a new cassette is about £20.00 :roll: cheaper probably than a new chain ...whats the issue ? Your chain must be seriously degraded if you are getting significant chainsuck on the chainrings . I've never heard of such a thing. How supple is the chain in your hand ? Take it off the rings and finger it. The links should be silky loose and flexible.
    I would be inclined to look carefully at your front mech first as that seems to be part of the issue

    There is no chain stretch and the chain is clean and well lubed with pro gold. The bike has been doing it almost from new. I'm now wondering if its a dud Centaur chain ring or chain. The other thing it does which I have posted about is sometimes the chain refuses to engage on the small ring. It comes right of the big one and then just doesn't engage with the small one. I then have to quickly unclip before falling off.
  • wilwil
    wilwil Posts: 374
    peanut wrote:
    a new cassette is about £20.00 :roll: cheaper probably than a new chain ...whats the issue ? Your chain must be seriously degraded if you are getting significant chainsuck on the chainrings . I've never heard of such a thing. How supple is the chain in your hand ? Take it off the rings and finger it. The links should be silky loose and flexible.
    I would be inclined to look carefully at your front mech first as that seems to be part of the issue

    There is no chain stretch and the chain is clean and well lubed with pro gold. The bike has been doing it almost from new. I'm now wondering if its a dud Centaur chain ring or chain. The other thing it does which I have posted about is sometimes the chain refuses to engage on the small ring. It comes right of the big one and then just doesn't engage with the small one. I then have to quickly unclip before falling off.
  • John.T
    John.T Posts: 3,698
    Check the chain ring teeth for damage. A slightly bent or bashed tooth could be enough to cause this. For things to have worn out in 1200 miles you would have to have been very poor with maintainance or done a lot of riding in pretty grotty weather and really got things blathered with mud.
    The non engagement thing I would have said ia either a limit stop or ring match problem but you seem to have covered that so without seeing the bike I can not help.
    If the bike has been doing this from nearly new you should take it back to where you bought it and get them to sort it under Warranty.
  • peanut
    peanut Posts: 1,373
    Big Red S wrote:
    I'd be hesitant about blaming the chain for it - generally chain damage that causes chainsuck is quite intermittent (since you normally only damage one bit of it at a time).

    Does it _always_ happen, or only at specific points in the crank's cycle (bear in mind that most people have a pedal position at which they do most of their shifting)? Try rotating the chainring about the cranks and see if it changes anything.

    we are not blaming the chain for anything ????????? we are just investigating the options here and working blind. :wink: The op said that he had soaked his chain in citric cleaner which would have leached al the lube from out of the link pins I was suggesting he check the suppleness of the whole chain link by link. This is standard practice when you have chain- suck/ shifting problems which are frequently caused by a link being to stiff over-tightened or seized with rust

    OP ghas just added some further important information about the chain sitting on the small chainring teeth .
  • peanut
    peanut Posts: 1,373
    wilwil
    it would be helpful if you would list every single piece of your transmission make and model and even more helpful if you would provide the picture as requested and supply the answer to the specific questions asked .
    Its very difficult to advise when we are getting information piecemeal bit by bit and cannot see your setup
  • nickwill
    nickwill Posts: 2,735
    I would put the money on the citrus degreaser having ruined the chain. In the dim and distant past, I used to have sparkling clean chains that only lasted 1000 miles. As someone has already said, by overcleaning the chain, you remove all the original lube from inside , and this is just about impossible to replace. I now just wipe the chain with a cloth covered in GT85, which cleans the muck off the outside, but leaves the innards alone.
    If the chain is not too badly degraded you should get away with keeping the cassette until you change the chain next time. The only way you will know is by trying the new chain and old cassette and seeing what happens.
  • wilwil
    wilwil Posts: 374
    peanut wrote:
    wilwil
    it would be helpful if you would list every single piece of your transmission make and model and even more helpful if you would provide the picture as requested and supply the answer to the specific questions asked .
    Its very difficult to advise when we are getting information piecemeal bit by bit and cannot see your setup

    Everything is Campag Centaur 2008 with Fulcrum R3 wheels and Speedplay pedals. I will take some pics.
    Do I put pics on a server and then put the link in the message?
    Thanks for your interest. I have been to my LBS and nobody has a clue as to what is causing this.
  • alfablue
    alfablue Posts: 8,497
    I am wondering if the large chain ring has had a knock - I had similar problems for a while, I eventually spotted that the big ring was "taco'd" (very slightly - then I remembered the crash I had :oops:

    This could mean the space between the two rings is slightly narrower in one place and causing suck/downshifting issues
  • redddraggon
    redddraggon Posts: 10,862
    wilwil wrote:
    Everything is Campag Centaur 2008

    I had the same issue as you. It was the Chorus chain that caused the problem - I only had the chain because I couldn't wait for my KMC chain, and then I was too lazy to put the KMC until I started getting shifting problems.

    I'd suggest changing the chain to a KMC chain.

    3 for £30 at merlin cycles - a bargain.

    http://www.merlincycles.co.uk/?fn=produ ... goryId=117
    I like bikes...

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  • wilwil
    wilwil Posts: 374
    wilwil wrote:
    Everything is Campag Centaur 2008

    I had the same issue as you. It was the Chorus chain that caused the problem - I only had the chain because I couldn't wait for my KMC chain, and then I was too lazy to put the KMC until I started getting shifting problems.

    I'd suggest changing the chain to a KMC chain.

    3 for £30 at merlin cycles - a bargain.

    http://www.merlincycles.co.uk/?fn=produ ... goryId=117

    Shouldn't I get an X10SL at £50.00?
  • peanut
    peanut Posts: 1,373
    wilwil wrote:
    peanut wrote:
    wilwil
    it would be helpful if you would list every single piece of your transmission make and model and even more helpful if you would provide the picture as requested and supply the answer to the specific questions asked .
    Its very difficult to advise when we are getting information piecemeal bit by bit and cannot see your setup

    Everything is Campag Centaur 2008 with Fulcrum R3 wheels and Speedplay pedals. I will take some pics.
    Do I put pics on a server and then put the link in the message?
    Thanks for your interest. I have been to my LBS and nobody has a clue as to what is causing this.

    easiest way is to join photobucket and upload your images there. Then you copy the url and paste it into your thread here. Shout if you need help
  • alfablue
    alfablue Posts: 8,497
    wilwil wrote:
    wilwil wrote:
    Everything is Campag Centaur 2008

    I had the same issue as you. It was the Chorus chain that caused the problem - I only had the chain because I couldn't wait for my KMC chain, and then I was too lazy to put the KMC until I started getting shifting problems.

    I'd suggest changing the chain to a KMC chain.

    3 for £30 at merlin cycles - a bargain.

    http://www.merlincycles.co.uk/?fn=produ ... goryId=117

    Shouldn't I get an X10SL at £50.00?
    Isn't the X10SL £24.95? (here)
  • Monty Dog
    Monty Dog Posts: 20,614
    If you can afford it the ti-nitride coated (gold) chains are perceptable smoother and don't suffer from corrosion as much - the X10SL above is the silver version, the gold one is a lot more. In terms of chainsuck - it's more to do with chainrings than chains IME - burrs or hooks pick-up the chain and don't release it. I doubt that after 1200 miles you'd have worn out the chain, never mind the rings and cassette if looked after.
    Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..
  • robbarker
    robbarker Posts: 1,367
    Have you got the correct width chain for the groupset?
  • wilwil
    wilwil Posts: 374
    Here are some pictures. I hope they give the info you need
    IMG_1994.JPG
    IMG_1995.JPG
    IMG_1999.JPG
    IMG_2003.JPG
    IMG_2005.JPG
    IMG_2008.JPG
    IMG_2010.JPG
  • redddraggon
    redddraggon Posts: 10,862
    IMG_1994.JPG

    I notice you've got a quick link on there. Is it the "Campa specific" KMC link?

    I had a KMC link on my Chorus chain, but it was a normal KMC link, and it was definitely the cause of my chain suck.
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  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    What happened to your front mech? Are those scratches or what? Or is it just the picture?

    Dennis Noward
  • wilwil
    wilwil Posts: 374
    dennisn wrote:
    What happened to your front mech? Are those scratches or what? Or is it just the picture?

    Dennis Noward
    The lighting and the closeness of the pic have accentuated them but they are a result of the chain suck.
  • wilwil
    wilwil Posts: 374
    IMG_1994.JPG

    I notice you've got a quick link on there. Is it the "Campa specific" KMC link?

    I had a KMC link on my Chorus chain, but it was a normal KMC link, and it was definitely the cause of my chain suck.
    I have just had the frame replaced under warranty and that link was put on there when the bike was rebuilt I only noticed it after I got the bike home. But the problems existed before the frame was changed. I don't know if it is a Campa specific link, how can i tell?
  • wilwil
    wilwil Posts: 374
    The Missing Link has KMC 10C written on it.