Aero Vs Shallow Rim?

cyclingpunk

How do most people make the choice? I do a lot of riding on the flats but an equal amount up fairly hilly areas. I do not race and most of the flats I ride are by the coast so are prone to fairly strong winds at times. Due to this my choice has been fairly set on shallow rims for my next purchase. I also do not race and do not do TT's.

My mind says shallow but my heart says deep (just cause they look damn good!) Should I stick to getting the shallow Dura Ace wheels I have been hankering after for so long?

System_1

I'd stick with the Dura Ace personally. I don't think there's a better wheel out there at that price at the moment (not that I have any, just going by the glowing reviews they've been getting).

I'm also not conviced of the aero advantage to most of the so called aero rims on the market until you start getting to the really deep ones (40-50mm). Maybe in racing conditions they shave a few seconds of a PB or something but for general riding I'd take shallow rims every time, and take advantage of the better acceleration and hill climbing ability from the lighter weight.

cyclingpunk

Thanks system. This was my thinking. I do like the look of the 50mm Dura Ace rims though! I think the shallow rims should also offer a bit more comfort over longer distances too which I do enjoy. I will also save a couple of hundred quid by sticking to my original choice

roadrider84

Have you considered the Reynolds Attack carbon wheelset? They're on offer at wiggle for 650 pounds.

I've had mine for a couple of weeks now. They climb hills like mountain goats and roll wonderfully well on the flats. They are truly superb and absorb a lot of the bumps and grinds the english roads have to offer due to the fact they are a carbon wheelset.

Even took them out this morning in the wet and they brake very well indeed for a carbon wheelset. They are a medium profile wheelset (34mm) so you still get the bling factor that deeper aero wheels offer.

I guarantee you will not be disapointed.

Mettan

cyclingpunk wrote:

I also do not race and do not do TT's.

If you currently don't Race or TT, then stick to lightweight shallow or mid-depth (as RoadRider mentioned) rims - being able to fly uphill on very lightweight wheels is nice enough in itself. Re. DuraAce, they're stiff, light, competent all-round wheels (I'd love a pair).

cyclingpunk

I wish it was the summer! Order........ ed!

aracer

For your requirements I'd suggest some combination of what you like the look of most and the cheapest. Small performance differences really shouldn't be important to you.

ugo.santalucia

UK is too windy for profiled rims...

You'll end up in a ditch with those Cosmic. Get the shallowest and you won't regret it. Unless you're TTrialling you won't notice the difference

Monty Dog

Ugo lol - have you actually ridden a deep rim wheel to make such a statement?

ugo.santalucia

Monty Dog wrote:

Ugo lol - have you actually ridden a deep rim wheel to make such a statement?

Jesus on this forum I always have something to prove...

Then do what you want and buy deep section rims... and stay home when it's windy

aracer

ugo.santalucia wrote:

UK is too windy for profiled rims...

Really? I've got semi-deep rims on my wheels (deeper than alu Cosmics), and somehow I manage to avoid the ditches - can't say I even notice any handling issues with the wheels at all in the wind. Even seem to cope OK on my TT bike with 50mm rims, despite some pretty blowy days I've ridden it on this year.

I'm guessing given you're opinion that you wouldn't own deep rims, hence not a very informed position to comment from :roll:

System_1

I don't remember Cosmics even being mentioned unless the OP has edited his post. :?:

I reckon you've made the right choice going for the shallow Dura Ace though. I'm totally jealous. I've had my eye on them since they came out and have been lusting for a pair ever since. Light weight, comfortable, stiff, alu breaking surface, adjustable and dirt cheap to service cup and cone hubs, with shimano reliability... how could anyone not want a pair? Unfortunately the bank manager and Inland Revenue would be mightily pi**ed off if I bought them.

One day...

andyrr

Some of the issues with deep v shallow rims :
Rider weight - a light rider will likely be more affected by cross winds with deep rims than a heavy rider.
Rim stiffness - deep rim can make a stiffer wheelset.
Extra weight - deep rim will be a bit heavier than comparable shallow.

ugo.santalucia

aracer wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

UK is too windy for profiled rims...

Really? I've got semi-deep rims on my wheels (deeper than alu Cosmics), and somehow I manage to avoid the ditches - can't say I even notice any handling issues with the wheels at all in the wind. Even seem to cope OK on my TT bike with 50mm rims, despite some pretty blowy days I've ridden it on this year.

I'm guessing given you're opinion that you wouldn't own deep rims, hence not a very informed position to comment from :roll:

You are a very argumentative lot indeed.
I think I have the right to have an opinion and if I want to share it for the benefit of the person who asked for one, it can only be beneficial.
That said, I remember being on top of the Cat and Fiddle on one of those days with a pair of semiprofiled rims with flat spokes and hating them, it was like having someone pushing my rear wheel sideways at every gust.
Then you say you have full profile wheels and don't even notice... good for you, what else can I say?

May I have an opinion without upsetting you lot? Shall I rephrase and say "the UK can be windy at times, some days you might struggle with high profile rims"...

Happy with that?

chriskempton

Your rephrasing sounds good ugo, language like you're suggesting sounds more accurate (as different people do seem to be affected differently in wind on deep rims, different parts of the UK are typically windier than others) and is also a bit more humble. Saying things in black and white about the whole country will tend to get people's backs up.

redddraggon

I understand what Ugo says about the Cat and Fiddle, coming down can get a bit windy.

However most of the time in the UK the wind isn't that bad.

ugo.santalucia

redddraggon wrote:

I understand what Ugo says about the Cat and Fiddle, coming down can get a bit windy.

However most of the time in the UK the wind isn't that bad.

Well, yes and no, let's say that if i could afford to have two or more pair of wheels, I'd like to own some Cosmic or Zipp, but if the budget allows for one pair only, I'd go for something I can actually use every day I want to go out, without having to fit an anemometer on my roof.

Dura Ace wheels fit the bill

redddraggon

ugo.santalucia wrote:

redddraggon wrote:

I understand what Ugo says about the Cat and Fiddle, coming down can get a bit windy.

However most of the time in the UK the wind isn't that bad.

Well, yes and no, let's say that if i could afford to have two or more pair of wheels, I'd like to own some Cosmic or Zipp, but if the budget allows for one pair only, I'd go for something I can actually use every day I want to go out, without having to fit an anemometer on my roof.

Dura Ace wheels fit the bill

I can't see why you couldn't use Cosmic Carbones every day....... as I said the wind isn't that bad in the UK, and if it was that windy the wheels don't make that much of a difference anyway, and would consider not going out whether I had shallow or deep rims.

aracer

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I think I have the right to have an opinion and if I want to share it for the benefit of the person who asked for one, it can only be beneficial.

You do - we also have the right to point out if you make defiinitive statemants as you did that you might just possibly be wrong. If you'd added "in my opinion, though others may find different", I might not have responded at all, and in any case wouldn't have jumped on you in the same way.

As reddragon says, I'd have no issues with using Cosmics (or indeed my slightly deeper wheels) on any day I'd consider riding - and I certainly don't actively avoid the wind. On the contrary I actually get more satisfaction from deep rims in a bit of a crosswind, as that's when they have the most benefit.

Though to get back to the original point - I've already made my comments on that and do actually agree that shallow rims would be just fine for the OP.

roadrider84

I've got shallow rims on my Bianchi and Medium profile rims on my Trek. I don't notice any difference between the two when it's windy save for coming down a hill on the Trek whereby the wheels just seem to slice through the air.

You see TDF riders with deep profile rims on when climbing up the mountains. You can't tell me when these riders are so high above sea level that they would choose the have deep rims knowing they MAY be affected by the wind.

cyclingpunk

Thanks for all your thoughts guys. I have gone for the Dura Ace now as mentioned I do not really need them for racing so the deep section rims would be a bit wasted on me at this stage. They just look so nice!!

As for the wind issue I guess it depends where your live etc? Being on the coast we do get quite a battering down here and weighing in at a puny 54kg I do get blown about a fair bit!!! I guess most of that though is due to the side wind hitting my body and throwing you off balence.

Anyway thanks all again, it helped me finally make a decision!

andrewgturnbull

redddraggon wrote:

I can't see why you couldn't use Cosmic Carbones every day....... as I said the wind isn't that bad in the UK, and if it was that windy the wheels don't make that much of a difference anyway, and would consider not going out whether I had shallow or deep rims.

Hi there.

That's exactly what I've been doing most of this year. I bought a set of 50mm carbones with the intention of using them as race wheels. I liked them so much I ended up doing 90% of my rides on them. The only exception was very wet weather as they fill up a bit...

I'm used to TTing and triathloning on even deeper wheels (70 or 80mm front, disc rear), so to me the 50mm wheels seem 'normal'. I do also tend to take risks and ride full-aero combinations in races when others decide against, even though I'm comparitively light (69kg).

My theory is that the windier it is, the more benefit an aero set up will give you - if you can hang onto it - I have the resuts to prove this!

ugo - I don't understand your comment about feeling like the rear wheel was being pushed sideways. In gusty conditions (e.g. passing a farm gate) it's the front that moves for me. There is a school of though that a deeper (or disc) rear wheel actually increases your stability as it moves the centre point of your side-on surface area further back away from the axis of steering. I'll see if I can find a link for this.

Cheers, Andy

ugo.santalucia

andrewgturnbull wrote:

redddraggon wrote:

I can't see why you couldn't use Cosmic Carbones every day....... as I said the wind isn't that bad in the UK, and if it was that windy the wheels don't make that much of a difference anyway, and would consider not going out whether I had shallow or deep rims.

Hi there.

That's exactly what I've been doing most of this year. I bought a set of 50mm carbones with the intention of using them as race wheels. I liked them so much I ended up doing 90% of my rides on them. The only exception was very wet weather as they fill up a bit...

I'm used to TTing and triathloning on even deeper wheels (70 or 80mm front, disc rear), so to me the 50mm wheels seem 'normal'. I do also tend to take risks and ride full-aero combinations in races when others decide against, even though I'm comparitively light (69kg).

My theory is that the windier it is, the more benefit an aero set up will give you - if you can hang onto it - I have the resuts to prove this!

ugo - I don't understand your comment about feeling like the rear wheel was being pushed sideways. In gusty conditions (e.g. passing a farm gate) it's the front that moves for me. There is a school of though that a deeper (or disc) rear wheel actually increases your stability as it moves the centre point of your side-on surface area further back away from the axis of steering. I'll see if I can find a link for this.

Cheers, Andy

Interesting... simple fluid dynamics suggest the extra surface exposed to the wind will be an advantage in tail-ish wind by acting as a sail essentially.

Of course the Murphy law also states that as an average the wind will be head on the flat sections and always lateral downhill, producing the maximum discomfort and the minimum advantage. Tail wind will be experienced while climbing, but the trees around will prevent the rider to get any benefit from it.

aracer

Not convinced you understand at all. The advantage is greatest in a cross wind (at which point the apparent wind comes from an angle to head on). Surely thinking things through properly you should realise that if they are an advantage in zero wind then they will actually be a disadvantage in a tail wind. Then again "simple fluid dynamics" is a bit of an oxymoron!

ugo.santalucia

Time for me to end this conversation, I'm clearly under-educated in fluid dynamics, british meteorology and figures of speech

Plus the chap has already bought his wheels and I have no budget for more wheels