Cross-four spoke lacing

Jamey

Okay, so my new rear wheel (hand-built by a chap in Scotland) has cross-four lacing on the spokes because I asked the guy to build me a strong wheel.

The chap reckons the wheel is good and strong (to the point where he had a hell of a job doing the stress relieving on the spokes) but because the hub flange is smallish (Shimano Ultegra) using the cross-four pattern means that the spokes actually cross each other right over the head of the next spoke.

At this point I'm hoping you understand what I mean because I don't have a photo yet (wheel was delivered to my folks place as they're in all the time and can receive deliveries when I'm at work).

Has anyone else ever had a cross-four wheel and if so, did you have this issue? The guy was very open about it and he said he'd re-lace it (cross-three) for free if I had any trouble within the first six months. The spokes are ACI Duplex and he's never had any break on his wheels but this is the first time he's done cross-four on a hub flange small enough to allow the spokes to cross at the head.

Opinions, thoughts, horror stories and words of encouragement all appreciated

Mayhemwmb

Would be interested in hearing your progress reoport as you start to use this wheel, I am learning how to build wheels and want to know the best pattern for building strength, Would be nice to see a pic when you get a chance, cheers

nicklouse

spokes crossing over the heads not good.

how many spokes in the wheel?

Jamey

Thirty-six.

nicklouse

and this is a road bike!
I use 36 4X on my monster DH bike.

I would be asking for a 3X.

robbarker

Conventional wisdm dicatates that 4x should only really be used with 40 or more spokes, for exactly this reason.

Jamey

Nick - how do you stop the spokes crossing the heads on your DH bike?

So what do I need to watch out for? Is it simply that the spokes are more likely to break? They don't break within a month does that mean everything's ok?

nicklouse

Jamey
bigger flanges.

if they are going to break it will be after the "six months"

Jamey

Ok well I'm planning to have taught myself wheelbuilding by then, using the spare one.

meagain

4x sounds over-kill to me!

Big Red S

Spokes crossing over the heads sounds like a recipe for breakage at the shoulder.

Especially with 36 spokes and tiny flanges.

There is more to wheel strength than the amount of metal in it - for some rim/hub combinations a 32 3x wheel is stronger than a 36 3x wheel, because of the angles of the spokes (and therefore forces on the hub and rim) and the holes in the rim and flanges.


What issues have you had with failure of the wheel in the past? If you've been breaking spokes regularly then there *might* be cause to try a more-spoked wheel (but a different wheelbuilder or choice of wheel components would probably be better), but generally the issues are with the weaknesses of the hubs and rims.

aracer

It's not as if 4x even has any nominal strength advantages with small flanges and 36 spokes!

Jamey

Gah... Where were all you guys when I originally asked for advice on the matter, eh?

So should I just send the wheel straight back and ask the guy to lace it 3x instead? Or should I give it a chance and see how it goes, bearing in mind that I've got a spare rear wheel now (the original one, which has just been rebuilt by Specialized yesterday).

Like I said, I was planning to take the spare wheel apart and then put it back together in my own time, gradually learning the art of wheelbuilding but I can always delay that for a month or two and leave the wheel as a working back-up in case this 4x handbuilt breaks due to spokes crossing heads.

redddraggon

Who was the wheelbuilder in question?

nicklouse

redddraggon
in the link above.

Jamey

Derek @ Wheelsmith.co.uk