Steel frames get "springy" with age?

aztecboy

Well that is what a reputable bike shop just told me.
Is this a known phenomena that I have missed all these years?

doktorsteve

Don't know about the frames but my old wheels on my steel bike seem to be laced with spaghetti.

dennisn

aztecboy wrote:

Well that is what a reputable bike shop just told me.
Is this a known phenomena that I have missed all these years?

I'm not sure that this idea has been proven or dis proven with any type of frame construction. I have seen lots of people on old steel bikes and they seem to move along just fine. Whether frames get springy or not may be a moot point as most people tend
to buy a new frame every so often. My feeling is that the "theory" that frames get "springy" is something from years ago that frame makers started circulating in order
to increase sales. After all, if you claim that a frame will last forever you'll put yourself
out of business. Maybe more of an urban legend than fact. One of those things that everyone says is true but they don't know why. And the bike shop does want to sell you
a new frame.


Dennis Noward

Monty Dog

Agree with Dennis - stuff of urban myth really. From my moderate knowledge of materials science, given the stress loading that a steel frame takes and the material characteristics, any stresses are well within the working zone and is unlikely to lead to a material change in it's characteristic. It's perfectly possible to build two similar steel frames with different 'springiness' due to tube selection etc, but pretty well impossible to make a stiff frame more springy just due to riding it.

term1te

My steel framed bike does feel a bit springy these days, but I think it is in comparison with the super stiff carbon and aluminium frames we are riding nowadays? I don’t believe the physical characteristics of the frame have changed over the last decade. In the same way my 7 year old TV has shrunk considerable in recent years.

roger_merriman

sounds like guff unless it was damaged it shouldn't change really. I have a old 22 year old steel bike, which has a bit of a give in it if I stomp down while my old steel mtb has no give at all.

I'd say it's how it's made.

aztecboy

Thanks Monty & Dennis et al

I was quite shocked when I was told this by a very reputable bike manufacturer. Mind you they know I am in the market because I crashed my beautiful 80's Pearson on a leJog tour a month ago. Classic crumple behind the head tube of the down and top tubes.
It will be going to Bob Jackson's to get retubed on our house insurance!

But it still did another 350 miles after the crash (after a little straightening), I think any other frame material and I would have been out of the tour.

robbarker

aztecboy wrote:

Is this a known phenomena that I have missed all these years?

No it,s b*ll*cks, a myth perpetrated by the trade over the years to get people to buy new frames when they don't need them.

Mark Alexander

robbarker wrote:

aztecboy wrote:

Is this a known phenomena that I have missed all these years?

No it,s b*ll*cks, a myth perpetrated by the trade over the years to get people to buy new frames when they don't need them.

That's a synical view Rob :shock: ........ sound's like crap to me too!!

dennisn

aztecboy wrote:

Thanks Monty & Dennis et al

I was quite shocked when I was told this by a very reputable bike manufacturer. Mind you they know I am in the market because I crashed my beautiful 80's Pearson on a leJog tour a month ago. Classic crumple behind the head tube of the down and top tubes.
It will be going to Bob Jackson's to get retubed on our house insurance!

But it still did another 350 miles after the crash (after a little straightening), I think any other frame material and I would have been out of the tour.

It may not be that the bike maker you spoke with was lying. This "rumor or whatever"
has been around for years and while I can't dis prove it I doubt that he can prove it.
But he may believe it's true simply because it's been said so many times that it has
sort of become a "fact or truth" in cycling.

Dennis Noward

meagain

As the walls get thinner with corrosion....probably!

aracer

dennisn wrote:

It may not be that the bike maker you spoke with was lying. This "rumor or whatever"
has been around for years and while I can't dis prove it

I can - not that anybody on here ever believes physics applies to bicycles.

dennisn

aracer wrote:

dennisn wrote:

It may not be that the bike maker you spoke with was lying. This "rumor or whatever"
has been around for years and while I can't dis prove it

I can - not that anybody on here ever believes physics applies to bicycles.

Physics isn't actually a real science is it? It's all done with smoke and mirrors? Right? Tell us the truth.

Dennis Noward

synchronicity

It's completely wrong. :roll:

Stiffness is called Young's Modulus for those in the know. It's a material property. It's constant. It doesn't change with time*. The stiffness only changes while it's being loaded past the elastic limit, into the plastic zone. By that stage, the frame will have broken.

*unless the material degrades at the structural level... that kind of thing is not happening though, unless it's completely rusted through.

I had one guy in "Australia's most reputable bike shop" tell me that titanium was steel. :shock: I had to set the guy straight. Right there and then.

Tim XC rider

Steel frames cannot get S"oft with age.
Any steel tube inthe frame behaves well within the elastic limit of the material therefore teh strain is fully recoverable. It will not strain more with repetitive loading. It will simply work harden over time and crack. It willnot get "Soft"

Al_38

Personally I think it sounds pretty ridiculous too... you might think that it gets less stiff as you get more used to the vibration etc that it transmitts.

What about if the steel has been heat treated / quenched to a saturated form?Theoretically that would age - although so slowly I don't think you would notice the difference in 10+ years.

dbb

i thought that work hardening only applied to bending beyond the elastic limit?

so given the design of the diamond bicycle frame - for minimum flex. i don't think there will be much work hardening going on.

(i can't believe i remember this stuff. i studied mechanical engineering 25 years ago and haven't used it since!)

aracer

dbb wrote:

i thought that work hardening only applied to bending beyond the elastic limit?

It does indeed. You shouldn't be anywhere near the elastic limit with normal use of a steel frame. You shouldn't be too near the fatigue limit either, so there won't even be any fatigue going on. In the absence of high enough temperatures to result in atomic migration within the steel (we're talking the sort of temperatures which will destroy your paintjob), and provided the frame doesn't succumb to corrosion, it will be just as good after 25 years as the day it was made.

Monty Dog

My 24-year old Gios Aerodynamic is testament to the fact - pity that many of the more recent over-built steel frames kinda lost the point - oversize tubes can be stiffer and lifeless though. The pinnacle was probably Columbus SLX IME

Ken Night

Monty Dog wrote:

My 24-year old Gios Aerodynamic is testament to the fact - pity that many of the more recent over-built steel frames kinda lost the point - oversize tubes can be stiffer and lifeless though. The pinnacle was probably Columbus SLX IME

Agree with the assertion, the LBS' statement is tosh

It's been said on other threads, and is worth repeating here, the build/tubeset has much to do with the ride

By Columbus SLX I guess you're referring to 1990's Colnagos, Monty? I don't get that satisfaction from mine.

The pinnacle was probably standard tubed 853 IMHO

Monty Dog

Ken, no I didn't have a 1990's Colnago - I've always wanted one though!

Ken Night

Sorry, OP....can't resist

Al_38

Mmmmmmm...

dennisn

Ken Night wrote:

Sorry, OP....can't resist

Ahhhhhh. Those were the days.

Dennis Noward

Smokin Joe

I couldn't personally say one way or the other, but one person who did reckon that the characteristics of a steel frame dulled with age was Bernard Hinault. He has said that when the riders were given new bikes for the Tour de France the difference in feel of the brand new frame was immediatly apparant.

I wouldn't argue with anyone with knowledge of materials who disagreed, but then I wouldn't tell Hinault he was talking bollox either.

aracer

Smokin Joe wrote:

I wouldn't tell Hinault he was talking bollox either.

I'd love to get the chance :twisted:

aztecboy

Blimey!
Just got back from the states and saw all this, thank you all for your input.
Ken, why is that a frame and not a bike!

Looks like an ebay search for a new frame as I think Bob Jackson is gonna say "chuck the Pearson". I will be sad to see her go. Don't think I will get much change out of £400 to get her fixed.

The damage
http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~thayton/

How it happened
http://tedhayton.blogspot.com/2008/09/d ... aster.html

sob

dennisn

Smokin Joe wrote:

I couldn't personally say one way or the other, but one person who did reckon that the characteristics of a steel frame dulled with age was Bernard Hinault. He has said that when the riders were given new bikes for the Tour de France the difference in feel of the brand new frame was immediatly apparant.

I wouldn't argue with anyone with knowledge of materials who disagreed, but then I wouldn't tell Hinault he was talking bollox either.

Look at it this way. Someone says something. Everyone thinks he should know and there is no way a person like Hinault wouldn't know all about these things. Therefore it becomes the "truth". One thing I do know about him is that he would never tell anyone,
in public, that you don't need a new bike every year. He is also a bicycle salesman and
"of course you need a new one, they get flexy and dull with age". When he says that,
it's only a matter of minutes before all his fans and wannabes flock to his bike sponsor
in order to get a new frame because theirs is "old and tired". And his frame sponsor loves him for it. They make more money, he makes more money. Think about it. Just a hint
from "someone in the know" that something tends to lose, even a bit, of stiffness or some other quality will send the multitudes out to buy the latest this or that becaues someone has said that the old ones can go "soft". Happens all the time and it's a well known fact that you can't even
begin to ride well without the "latest".

Dennis Noward

Smokin Joe

The quote from Hinault was from The Comic this year, not when he was racing 20 + years ago. I am not making a claim about whether steel does lose a percentage of it's quality with age myself as I don't have a clue and never noticed it when I rode steel. But it was something that used to be accepted by riders of that era and before, and lets face it, if a steel frame dulled by just 1% over a certain mileage while most of us wouldn't even begin to notice it would be obvious to a highly skilled cyclist who spent up to eight hours a day in the saddle.

Again, not got a clue myself.

Ken Night

aztecboy wrote:

Ken, why is that a frame and not a bike!

It is a bike-I sourced 8spd Record over a year and built it this summer. Few nice enough days to take a good pic of the finished bike

It might be old, but its not springy!

aracer

Smokin Joe wrote:

lets face it, if a steel frame dulled by just 1% over a certain mileage while most of us wouldn't even begin to notice it would be obvious to a highly skilled cyclist who spent up to eight hours a day in the saddle.

Again, not got a clue myself.

But then the frame doesn't change by 1% - it doesn't even change by 0.01%, as we keep pointing out. So there is no difference to notice. If you don't have a clue yourself, why not accept the wisdom of those of us who do?