Kohl test positive for CERA

Yellow Peril

What really worries me is that Britain is on an absolutely unprecedented high in terms of cycling achievement at the moment. Those Olympians, World Champs and Tours (various) stage winners are currently amongst the most powerful sporting people in the land in terms of turning people, youngsters and everybody towards cycling whether it be future stars of road or track or reclaiming the roads for a better cleaner healthier future.

If anyone of those were found to be drug cheats it would be like tossing a grenade into the room of British cycling and shutting the door

dodge1302

Yellow Peril wrote:

If anyone of those were found to be drug cheats it would be like tossing a grenade into the room of British cycling and shutting the door

I agree with you on that one! It would be just the end of it...

One thing I would say, and this is not to say it's proof, is that none of the accomplishments of British Cycling's athletes could be considered as "superhuman". I see lots and lots of hard work, dedication and focus.

Here is hoping. I think the athletes are relatively safe in their early years but once they turn full-time professional for one of the commercially sponsored teams they are at the mercy of the people with no morals and British Cycling can do no more.

Generally speaking it is good to see the British Athletes aligning themselves with the "clean" teams such as Garmin and Columbia, but of course that doesn't in itself offer any guarantees.

I wonder whether the idea of "National" pro teams would have any effect - I guess they are not really viable - but who knows?

dennisn

Kléber wrote:

Dennis, you keep posting argumentative comments that serve little but to nitpick people's statements. Whenever I see your comments, I'm now beginning to skip them as I find them pointless. Sorry if this sounds rude but you keep attacking members on here, it's tiresome.

So answer my question. Did you take up cycling to be "cool"? Did you all make the same mistake of worshipping and adoring these guys at one time in your life only to have the rug pulled out from under you? And now it's all turned to hate? And how will doping pros kill cycling? If the pros "go away" how does that stop people from cycling. You'll still be
cycling because you like it? Right? Or is it just to be "cool"?

Dennis Noward

John Stevenson

dennisn:
"So answer my question. Did you take up cycling to be "cool"?"

That's not a question it's a borderline personal attack. Knock it off.

Anonymous

***** Yellow Peril - change the email address in your profile to a valid one please *****

Cumulonimbus

Holczer is still trying to go with the idea that no-one suspected anything

'Hans-Michael Holczer, team owner and manager, said no one suspected anything about Kohl. "Nothing was known about it on the team, there were no rumours. That was in no way organised by the team. It just shows how powerless we are. '

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id= ... oct14news2

Surely they must have suspected something?

dennisn

John Stevenson wrote:

dennisn:
"So answer my question. Did you take up cycling to be "cool"?"

That's not a question it's a borderline personal attack. Knock it off.

I think you're wrong. It's only a question. Although I will admit it's a tough one for some people to answer and I really doubt that they will. Maybe to themselves. So what's your take on all this venom and hatred? There has to be a reason for someone to hate a more or less complete stranger with this kind of zeal and it isn't just about doping. It goes deeper than that. This is a hatred of pro cyclists, whom more than few people on this website
believe, for whatever reason, that they have "done them wrong" and they are p*ssed off, to say the least. As far as personal attacks go, I would urge you to read
the posts a bit more thoroughly. I'm sure you'll find more than a few "personal attacks".
Maybe not on Bike Radar readers but aren't the racers human beings also. Where is your
compassion for them or are they all really, and I quote, "filthy", "bast#rds", "druggies", "idiots", etc., etc.? For me it's sort of like being in
the dentist chair, if he drills long enough he'll get to the root of things and probably hit a nerve along the way. Have I struck that nerve? Are most of these guys p#ssed off
because they themselves used to be "cool" cyclists and now, due to bad press, well, maybe they are not so "cool" and they must direct their anger toward someone.

Dennis Noward

Yellow Peril

I think you are totally missing the point Dennis.

People read/subscribe to this site because they are passionate about cycling. They don't do it to be cool, in fact it is fair to say in Britain cycling is just shaking off its nerdy image amongst the public at large.

People here are angered because some of the pros are cheating, not only themselves, but other decent hard working cyclists out of a living. This isn't just about image it is about livelihoods as well. Such livelihoods are rewarded by the adulation of the fans who buy the replica kit and bikes because they think their heroes have genuinely achieved something great.

If you are passionate about something and someone else just makes a mockery of that passion by cheating then you have a right to be angry and disillusioned about it all.

Tom Butcher

dennisn wrote:

I think you're wrong. It's only a question. Although I will admit it's a tough one for some people to answer and I really doubt that they will. Maybe to themselves. So what's your take on all this venom and hatred? There has to be a reason for someone to hate a more or less complete stranger with this kind of zeal and it isn't just about doping. It goes deeper than that. This is a hatred of pro cyclists, whom more than few people on this website
believe, for whatever reason, that they have "done them wrong" and they are p*ssed off, to say the least. As far as personal attacks go, I would urge you to read
the posts a bit more thoroughly. I'm sure you'll find more than a few "personal attacks".
Maybe not on Bike Radar readers but aren't the racers human beings also. Where is your
compassion for them or are they all really, and I quote, "filthy", "bast#rds", "druggies", "idiots", etc., etc.? For me it's sort of like being in
the dentist chair, if he drills long enough he'll get to the root of things and probably hit a nerve along the way. Have I struck that nerve? Are most of these guys p#ssed off
because they themselves used to be "cool" cyclists and now, due to bad press, well, maybe they are not so "cool" and they must direct their anger toward someone.

Dennis Noward

You really should go away and write a book with all this in it. Make it a long one.

Monty Dog

Let's face it, the arms race isn't going to stop - for every brilliant, young clean rider, there's going to be an 'also ran' but because he wasn't blessed with the same physical gifts is going to try and find a way to 'get equal' by whatever means. I too have heard the stories relayed of neo pros in Italy and Belgium in particular being invited to 'prepare' for races and it's always a balance of risk vs reward. Currently, the pendulum has swung more in the favour of the testers, but believe me, with the advances in medical science, there's always going to be a means of obtaining the drugs and using them illicitly. I also belive that Big Pharma can play a greater role - but perhaps they're not too interested in losing a revenue stream? Equally, there's the generic drug producers keen to find an outlet for their investment, and they probably have no scruples either - witness the access to gene therapy in China. But if anyone believes that drugs is a 'cycling' problem, then they are clearly a poor judge of human character. The Balco trial demonstrated that the 'Jones defence' is fallacy - perhaps in fighting the illicit narcotics trade, 'following the money' would be an easier strategy? I'm not disillusioned, just a pragmatist.

John Stevenson

dennisn wrote:

I think you're wrong.

To be blunt, what you think is immaterial.

As a moderator of this site, I am asking you not to express your opinions in ways that amount to personal attacks on other users of this forum.

It's that simple.

Hugh A

Meanwhile - back to the thread - who thinks that some of the olympic road results may end up looking a bit different if they can agree testing protocols?

andy_wrx

From l'Equipe

Quelques heures après la révélation du contrôle positif à l'EPO de troisième génération de son coureur autrichien Bernhard Kohl, le manager général de la Gerolsteiner Hans-Michael Holczer a annoncé le retrait immédiat de son équipe du cyclisme professionnel. Cette affaire s'ajoute à celle de Stefan Schumacher, également contrôlé positif durant le Tour de France. Et trop, c'en est trop ! «Je n'ai pas mérité cela après 10 ans dans le vélo, a déclaré lundi soir Holczer à l'agence autrichienne APA. C

With my rusty French, I think that's Holczer, manager of Gerolsteiner, announcing that Gerolsteiner (team) are withdrawing immediately. Saying that with Kohl on top of Schumacher, it's too much. That after 10 years in cycling he doesn't deserve it

Well, I suppose it was 100% predictable. Gerolsteiner (water ompany sponsor) were pulling-out at the end of the year and the team was shutting anyway.


Still, cheer up. Basso's suspension ends in 10 days and Leakygas are racing him in the Japan Cup :evil: :evil:

DavidBelcher

Yellow Peril wrote:

If anyone of those were found to be drug cheats it would be like tossing a grenade into the room of British cycling and shutting the door

Apparently, if David Millar had been receiving any Lottery funding around the time his EPO use was uncovered, it would've been financial curtains for the coaching/training set-up BC had in place for the other largely track-based riders. Given all that's been achieved at World Champs and Olympic Games since then, a disastrous scenario.

David

dennisn

Yellow Peril wrote:

I think you are totally missing the point Dennis.

People read/subscribe to this site because they are passionate about cycling. They don't do it to be cool, in fact it is fair to say in Britain cycling is just shaking off its nerdy image amongst the public at large.

People here are angered because some of the pros are cheating, not only themselves, but other decent hard working cyclists out of a living. This isn't just about image it is about livelihoods as well. Such livelihoods are rewarded by the adulation of the fans who buy the replica kit and bikes because they think their heroes have genuinely achieved something great.

If you are passionate about something and someone else just makes a mockery of that passion by cheating then you have a right to be angry and disillusioned about it all.

If people are so "passionate about cycling" why would they care if they are "nerdy"?
Sounds to me a bit like they want to be "cool". Now, I don't care why you ride. Whether it's to be "cool", because you love it, or whatever, the fact remains that if all these people hadn't set their heroes up on pedestals, as gods, they wouldn't get so p#ssed off when
they find out that pros are human beings too and sometimes not too "cool" themselves.
And if the pros aren't "cool" how can we be "cool"? Thus p#ssed off.
I also doubt that these people have any compassion For "other decent, hard working cyclist". They are mad at their, used to be, heroes and gods.

Dennis Noward

DavMartinR

This is just a shot in the dark,but is Dennis LA's long lost dad???

NJK

dodge1302 wrote:

Yellow Peril wrote:

If anyone of those were found to be drug cheats it would be like tossing a grenade into the room of British cycling and shutting the door

I agree with you on that one! It would be just the end of it...

One thing I would say, and this is not to say it's proof, is that none of the accomplishments of British Cycling's athletes could be considered as "superhuman". I see lots and lots of hard work, dedication and focus.

Here is hoping. I think the athletes are relatively safe in their early years but once they turn full-time professional for one of the commercially sponsored teams they are at the mercy of the people with no morals and British Cycling can do no more.

Generally speaking it is good to see the British Athletes aligning themselves with the "clean" teams such as Garmin and Columbia, but of course that doesn't in itself offer any guarantees.

I wonder whether the idea of "National" pro teams would have any effect - I guess they are not really viable - but who knows?

Don't you think that Brailsford and co have waited until the pro road scene has cleaned up a bit. It is cleaner now than at any time in the past 10-15yrs or so. He couldn't risk it in the past if he had set up a road team 10yrs ago and quite a few positive tests turn up the track funding would have stopped. Quite clever if you like waiting until the european scene is on its knees before putting a british team in.

dennisn

DavMartinR wrote:

This is just a shot in the dark,but is Dennis LA's long lost dad???

If I am, the least he could do is get me a new Trek with 10 speeds. Here I sit with a
clunky steel frame and cr#p 9 speed. It's been humiliating.

Dennis Noward

leguape

DavidBelcher wrote:

Yellow Peril wrote:

If anyone of those were found to be drug cheats it would be like tossing a grenade into the room of British cycling and shutting the door

Apparently, if David Millar had been receiving any Lottery funding around the time his EPO use was uncovered, it would've been financial curtains for the coaching/training set-up BC had in place for the other largely track-based riders. Given all that's been achieved at World Champs and Olympic Games since then, a disastrous scenario.

David

That doesn't sound right to me. For starters Millar got done in 2004 when the programme was entirely based around the track and Olympic goals already. It was on the basis of the Athens results that the funding and plan for the 4 year cycle to Beijing was based.

As I understand it the Lottery funding is performance based - ie BCF says "we expect to deliver X results in Y competitions on a funding basis of Z" - otherwise UK Athletics would have lost a heck of a lot of money as a result of Don, Chambers, Ohuruogu and others serving bans.

Also BCF did have a rider go positive during that period according to Richard Moore's book on the subject, it was just they were a bit minor. If the BCF performance plan had been based around Millar getting TT results at the Worlds then there might have been an issue, but as it wasn't I can't see why there would have been an impact on the track programme.

portuguese mike

Dennis,

I really do think you are missing the point. People are diapointed not because they've been let down by their heroes and even less so because it makes them less 'cool'.
people are angry because the cheats ruin competitive sport. If the playing field isn't level then not only does it render results meaningless (and fundamentally what is the point of racing if not for the result) it also is unfair on those that don't cheat.
I'm annoyed because it just makes racing a bit pointless when you see a 'great' performance and then you find out it was drug fuelled. And just because finding out soemone i respected is a cheat maks me feel let down does not mean i feel less cool on a bike or love riding any less it's just sad to be reminded that people aren't perfect.

donrhummy

That is REALLy too bad...and very sad news.

Perhaps that's why he chose to sign with Silence-Lotto - a team that doesn't have internal testing.

Kléber

Dennis, I took up cycling at a point when it was distinctly uncool, way before the interest in Armstrong and his fairy tale. I do care for the image of the sport but it's more the health of the riders that makes me spend time railing against doping.

But you don't need to go for everyone who posts here! This thread is really about Kohl and doping, that's why I started it at least

dennisn

Kléber wrote:

Dennis, I took up cycling at a point when it was distinctly uncool, way before the interest in Armstrong and his fairy tale. I do care for the image of the sport but it's more the health of the riders that makes me spend time railing against doping.

But you don't need to go for everyone who posts here! This thread is really about Kohl and doping, that's why I started it at least

People are writing in "railing against doping" AND dopers. They don't seem to care who, or is it whom, they call pretty much all manner of names and things. Yet when I write in
to express my views of them - look out. They can say what they want about anyone that
suits them at the moment from slurs to foul language to all sorts of acquisitions. Me, all I have to do is call their motives into question and I strike a nerve and get enough denial
to make me think that some people do protest to much(sorry Shakespeare). I'll probably keep doing this. I don't like what they say and I'm not ready to serve up heads on platters.
Their whole attitude is too self righteous. When I see the halos around their heads maybe then I'll listen.

Dennis Noward

oldwelshman

iainf72 wrote:

oldwelshman wrote:

I would say have an amnsety for all, last chance, then anyone caught whether at event or retrospective testing, banned for life, simple.
No grey areas, no ambiguity, straight and simple, caught doping, banned for life.

??

What's an amnesty going to prove?

Kids, this is what it looks like when a sport which has been rotten to the core for decades starts to address it's issue. Did you think people would say "oh, I won't dope then" If you can't perform at the same level without the needle, you will use the needle. Let's not make this more complicated than it already is.

I don't recall claiming amnesty will proove anything? Just start with a clean slate and thats it.
How is it being addressed if a doping rider can return after a 2 year ban. Thats hardly an effective deterrent is it, as it is now being prooven. I guess the riders see that they will take the chance of not being caught as they will only get 2 year ban so worth the risk. How else can you explain the idiots still doung it.
If the ban is for life I am pretty sure most will not take the risk though I suspect you may still get the odd dickhead.
Last but not least how di I suggest making it complicated.
It is as simple as you can get, clean slate, if caught in future bann for life simple, not complex.

Patrick1.0

dennisn wrote:

Kléber wrote:

Dennis, I took up cycling at a point when it was distinctly uncool, way before the interest in Armstrong and his fairy tale. I do care for the image of the sport but it's more the health of the riders that makes me spend time railing against doping.

But you don't need to go for everyone who posts here! This thread is really about Kohl and doping, that's why I started it at least

People are writing in "railing against doping" AND dopers. They don't seem to care who, or is it whom, they call pretty much all manner of names and things. Yet when I write in
to express my views of them - look out. They can say what they want about anyone that
suits them at the moment from slurs to foul language to all sorts of acquisitions. Me, all I have to do is call their motives into question and I strike a nerve and get enough denial
to make me think that some people do protest to much(sorry Shakespeare). I'll probably keep doing this. I don't like what they say and I'm not ready to serve up heads on platters.
Their whole attitude is too self righteous. When I see the halos around their heads maybe then I'll listen.

Dennis Noward

For goodness sake, Dennis. Dopers are exactly what they are. We don't know them personally, we just know that they ride a bike and that they dope. The two things should not go together and because some people do put them together, it irritates the rest of us. That is it. It's that simple.

You do not have to be a saint in order to have permission to point out that dopers are bad for the sport. If you don't mind, then good for you. Nobody is making you do anything. The rest of us care enough to be annoyed by it and to also take encouragement from it when they are caught cheating. Once again, no insulting, personal comments.

gabriel959

He has got a point though, I know this is going to sound far fetched but if Sastre or Cancellara were usual forums users here and I was one of them I would feel pissed off that a lot of people were calling me a cheater, even if I had never tested positive for an illegal substance.

Kléber

gabriel959, visit the CSC team forums, where fans and sceptics alike do exactly that!

NJK

Kléber wrote:

gabriel959, visit the CSC team forums, where fans and sceptics alike do exactly that!

I wouldn't think they care. Look at Kohl he was lying through his teeth because he didn't think he was going to get caught. He stood out this year just like Pozzovivo did at the Giro, and yes he hasn't been caught yet! Don't think he is clean though.

Patrick1.0

gabriel959 wrote:

He has got a point though, I know this is going to sound far fetched but if Sastre or Cancellara were usual forums users here and I was one of them I would feel pissed off that a lot of people were calling me a cheater, even if I had never tested positive for an illegal substance.

Well, I only call foul on the dopers who are proved to be dopers. So I am not guilty of any of that.

I do believe in proof, and proof that is good enough to be used to convict somebody.

As far as a motive is concerned, if Dennis is so interested, then I suppose I would just have to say, I don't train for 20 plus hours a week and then enjoy the fact that other cyclists are doping. I'll find out whether I am good enough to be a professional rider or not, and I have no bitterness whatsoever as I haven't been in the sport for long enough to have built any up. I just don't like the idea of doping being the status quo in pro cycling.

I mean, that's really it. I don't claim to be anything more than a fan of the sport and somebody who enjoys riding their bike fast for long periods of time. I have enough experience of life at the elite level of sport due to my upbringing, but I really see no need to go into it. What I do know from the experiences of my own parents is that doping is not something to be treated lightly and it is an unfair means of getting an advantage for some of these athletes. I also know from those expereinces, that you can be really competitive without the dope, too. Being dipped on the line by a drug cheat is tough, though. That's as far as my own personal bias, if there is one when addressing the subject of doping, goes.

But I am sure Dennis knows more about it than I do and that I am a nasty, horrible creature for disliking any form of cheating.

avoidingmyphd

if Sastre and Cancellara were users here, their reaction to being a accused of cheating would, I hope, not be based on the fact that they'd never tested positive. It would be based on whether or not they actually cheat, regardless of their testing history.

That is the difference between now and 5 years ago. (and not that young riders now are clean and old riders from then are dirty). THEN it "wasn't cheating " if you weren't caught. NOW, riders seem to have cottoned on that that was not true: it's cheating whether you are caught or not.