CHAIN: to clean or not to clean (with degreaser)?!

maluco_beleza
maluco_beleza Posts: 28
edited October 2008 in Workshop
Everyone agrees that a clean (and lubricated) chain = healthy bike right?
And to clean the chain, you should use a good degreaser right? Well, I thought so, until I came across the following, from KMC's website:

"NEVER EVER use a so-called'chain washing machine' in combination with solvent. This is the one and only sure way to instantly ruin your chain.
Avoid the use of solvents, not only are these bad for the environment, they remove lubricant from the chain's bearing.
Lubricate the chain every time you clean it, scrub it, or wash it with any solvent (the usage of solvent is not recommended!); "

http://www.kmcchain.com/index.php?ln=en&fn=service

So, should I keep using degreaser to clean my chain?

Comments

  • balthazar
    balthazar Posts: 1,565
    Advocations on this subject seems to vary with the wind, even from manufacturers. Either way, you can bet that this advice came from the marketing people at KMC, not the engineers. It makes no coherent sense at all.

    Chains should be removed and cleaned of old oil and dirt which together make a useful grinding paste, and lubricated with fresh oil whenever convenient. Degreaser of some sort is the right stuff to use. The machines are arguably fairly useless in that they only clean the outside of the chain. It's not magic or complicated: chains haven't changed for years.

    Maintaining your chains according to a different method will not make an enormous difference to wear rates, unless these are things you chart religiously. In short, it doesn't matter that much. I take my chain off and clean it from time to time, and otherwise give it a little oil (from the can I fill my car with) whenever it looks like it needs it.
  • JWSurrey
    JWSurrey Posts: 1,173
    I've recently reverted to using one of those quick-join links (and carrying a spare for those chain emergencies).
    I remove then drop the entire chain in to good old paraffin "bath" using a disposable aluminium tray, and give it a good brush to clean it - seems to clean it better, and cause less rust issues than a citrus degreaser - plus if you get bored and leave it immersed for a day, it doesn't reduce to a pile of rust!
  • alfablue
    alfablue Posts: 8,497
    Everyone agrees that a clean (and lubricated) chain = healthy bike right?
    And to clean the chain, you should use a good degreaser right? Well, I thought so, until I came across the following, from KMC's website:

    "NEVER EVER use a so-called'chain washing machine' in combination with solvent. This is the one and only sure way to instantly ruin your chain.
    Avoid the use of solvents, not only are these bad for the environment, they remove lubricant from the chain's bearing.
    Lubricate the chain every time you clean it, scrub it, or wash it with any solvent (the usage of solvent is not recommended!); "

    http://www.kmcchain.com/index.php?ln=en&fn=service

    So, should I keep using degreaser to clean my chain?
    I think it is because the lube deep in the links is designed to stay put, its greasy stuff not thin lube like we use, and removing and attempting to relube is just going to leave dry links....or something. It sort of makes sense to me, so maybe just a superficial clean and relube is the way to go.
  • micken
    micken Posts: 275
    Anyone have a link (no pun intended) to a removable 10 speed link? The SRAM 10 speed is a Powerlock designed not to come apart after fitting. Good for repairs but not so good for taking your chain off for maintenance.
  • alfablue
    alfablue Posts: 8,497
    KMC 10 Speed link at Wiggle. they are re-usable, I fitted one today.
  • micken
    micken Posts: 275
    Cheers alfablue
  • wilwil
    wilwil Posts: 374
    I have a feeling that my front gear changing problems have been caused by a chain that is too 'clean'. I used a Park chain scrubber with Citrus Degreaser, I then rinsed the the degreaser off with water in the scrubber, but only once. I then applied Chain Link Pro after I thought it was dry.

    I'm now wondering if I got rid of all the degreaser before lubing.

    Also, the Citrus degreaser seems much stronger than the Park degreaser that came with the scrubber.

    Now I have cleaned the chain using Chain Link Pro and reapplied Chain Link Pro just like it says on the bottle. i think its better but have yet to really give it a good road test.

    Finally, I don't think the drive has ever been as quiet as it was when the chain still had the original Campag lube in it.
  • Smokin Joe
    Smokin Joe Posts: 2,706
    My experience with motorcycle chains was that taking them off and soaking them in degreaser shortened their life by about 25%. I always clean in situe with WD40 and a paintbrush.
  • Mettan
    Mettan Posts: 2,103
    I clean my KMC chain with degreaser (on the bike), wash it off with water, dry it then lube it using Fininsh line - never had a problem - do tend to replace chains every 5-6 months or so though.
  • Ronio
    Ronio Posts: 7
    I'm with Smokin Joe, clean the chain in situ on the bike using GT85 applied to a toothbrush rather than direct to the chain to get the worst off. Wipe with a cloth and leave to dry. Later apply Finish Line. Chains seem to have lasted significantly longer than when I used to use citrus degreaser + chain cleaning machine..
    FCN 1
  • Mozza1
    Mozza1 Posts: 128
    I used to work in a machine shop which had ultrasonic degreasing tanks to clean components. This came in very handy for dropping my chains in!
    Once cleaned in the tank I hung the chain up & blew an airline through it to remove any degreaser left in the rollers. No matter how many times I used the airline there was always degreaser/oil blowing through. I even resorted to putting the chain in the oven in the hope that remaining degreaser would evaporate.
    To finish I would lube with Finish Line Dry.
    These days I just wipe the chain with a cloth soaked with degreaser (whilst turning the cranks), let it dry & lube with Pro Link.
    Can’t say that either method makes much difference to chain life.
  • IME degreaser is not helpful as it washes out the factory lube from inside the links which is relatively viscous and hard to replace once gone. The factory lube is the best lube your chain will ever get and whatever you apply afterwards, a vigorously degreased chain always feels dry.

    With a KMC chain with quicklink I just remove the chain and wipe thoroughly with a Muc-Off Dirty Work wipe or kitchen towel with a little degreaser. The rollers get well cleaned this way and this is where the 'grinding paste' causes excessive wear to the rest of your drivetrain.

    Chains are cheap to replace - KMC X10 can be had for £10 - compared to cassettes and chainrings so I normally replace after 4,000km or so. Cost aside, a new chain just feels a lot better too.

    Check out Sheldon Brown for (yet) another opinion on this...
    http://www.sheldonbrown.com/chains.html
  • joeyhalloran
    joeyhalloran Posts: 1,080
    seems like the best thing to do is wipe rather than soak with degreaser to avoid getting the internatal grease out?
  • Sheldon Brown contradicts himself slightly: he states that you shouldn't remove the factory lubricant (in line with KMC's recommendations).

    But then he goes on and instructs people to clean the chain in a degreaser bath, using a Coke bottle (which clearly will remove everything, dirt and lubricant).

    Most of the stuff I read in several forums and how to's, but I kind of agree with what most people say here: it makes more sense to remove the really dirty stuff with a rag, and if needed, apply just a few drops of dry lube on the rolers. Assuming that the outside bits are clean, you won't carry grit into the interior of the chain.

    And, James_london mentioned, chains are not so expensive, so it makes sense just to get a new one every now and then (it might be even less than 4000km....)
  • il_principe
    il_principe Posts: 9,155
    I have KMC SL chain and follow their advice. Not sure why marketing folk would suggest not degreasing it btw, it's not in their interest to increase the lifespan of your chain is it?

    I don't see why you need degreaser. If you have an expensive chain then clean it regularly, I just wipe down with a cloth, lube then wipe down and lube again. Works very well for me.

    Chucking the chain in a pot of degreaser seems a tad silly. You'll have a tough time removing all the degreaser and will just remove all the factory lube. I get the point of a chain bath for an MTB but not for a well maintained roadbike.

    Also why did someone suggest using car oil? Surely it's far to thick (Car oil is designed to work under high temps - 100 - 300 degrees c) Why not use something designed for the job.
  • ride_whenever
    ride_whenever Posts: 13,279
    it is all about having an entire chain made of powerlinks and inner plates so you can dismantle the entire thing, degrease the lot and then apply a grease to the inside of the rollers/on the pins, and leave the outside dry of lube.

    Not that i'm obsessive about clean chains or anything :shock:
  • alfablue
    alfablue Posts: 8,497
    Maluco, yes, I am leaning that way, want to keep the factory lube in place. The only thing I would differ with is that I favour wet lube - actually, I use Progold Prolink, which is the best of all I have tried, stays on like a wet lube, stays clean like a dry lube, it works great all year round.
  • I cleaned my Dura-Ace 10 speed chain with a chain cleaner and citrus degreaser and also immersed it in degreaser and a water rinse and dry to give it the best clean possible.

    Came out nice and clean, but could not for the life of me prevent it from squeaking on subsequent rides. Tried Finish Line, WD-40, light oil but nothing could restore it to its former self. Ended up buying a replacement chain.

    I think I must have removed the factory applied oil that was deep within the chain links and no lube I could apply was capable of getting in there.

    So now I have a strict policy of only wiping down the external surfaces of the chain with a rag and maybe some WD-40.

    Have started using a Finish Line wax based lube which helps keep the chain clean as through use bits of wax fall away from the chain taking dirt with them.
  • balthazar
    balthazar Posts: 1,565
    The grease which new chains have been coated in is perfect lubrication, and should certainly be made the most of. Eventually, though, it becomes contaminated with dirt and should be cleaned out. I had thought this was more or less the advice that Sheldon gave, but I haven't read his page on this subject recently.

    Agitation in solvent is the only way to clean the dirty gritty oil out from inside the chain. The lubricating oil is not very critical, but car engine oil is perfectly good for the application, and is something which many people already have in their garage. 3 in 1 would do, though it's a little thin. Fancy little bottles from the bike shop are fine too.

    As I said, none of this stuff matters that much because few people are aware of how long their chains last, and are rarely offended when they wear out. We all fall into different habits, in uncritical situations.
  • woody-som
    woody-som Posts: 1,001
    I clean the chain on the winter bike with the chain cleaner wheel thing, but use diesel in it, then relube the chain using compressor oil. seem to stick the winter rides.
    The summer bike doesn't get it's chain cleaned, just relubed every now and again with white lightning dry.
  • JWSurrey
    JWSurrey Posts: 1,173
    micken wrote:
    Anyone have a link (no pun intended) to a removable 10 speed link? The SRAM 10 speed is a Powerlock designed not to come apart after fitting. Good for repairs but not so good for taking your chain off for maintenance.
    I've got KMC links, however I prefer the Wippermann links - You need to specify whether you want it in 10sp Shimano or 10sp Campag. size.
    The Wippermann links are easier to take apart for cleaning, and easier to find on the bike chain!

    I think GBCycles Croydon stock them, as do Condor but you have to ask for them as they're kept behind the counter....
    Also at Wiggle:
    http://www.wiggle.co.uk/s/Cycle/7/wippermann
  • 592
    592 Posts: 4
    I clean chains and cassettes with an old pair of the tights (you wont believe how well this works) and then lightly lube with finish line. Works a treat..
  • DavidBelcher
    DavidBelcher Posts: 2,684
    it is all about having an entire chain made of powerlinks and inner plates so you can dismantle the entire thing

    A few years ago the guys at Wippermann did exactly that, and made a chain of Connex links throughout as an advertising stunt to prove the durability of the link. Didn't break and shifting was apparently fine.

    David
    "It is not enough merely to win; others must lose." - Gore Vidal
  • andrew_s
    andrew_s Posts: 2,511
    it is all about having an entire chain made of powerlinks and inner plates so you can dismantle the entire thing, degrease the lot and then apply a grease to the inside of the rollers/on the pins, and leave the outside dry of lube.

    Not that i'm obsessive about clean chains or anything :shock:

    Instructions here: http://sheldonbrown.com/chainclean.html
  • micken
    micken Posts: 275
    Thanks for the alternative suggestions JWSurrey
  • Saturn
    Saturn Posts: 628
    If you clean a chain on the outside by wiping it with a cloth or whatever and then give it a shake and a soak in a jar of white spirits, remove the chain and let the sediment settle, then drain off the spirits and inspect the sediment, you'll find loads of sand like grit and small flecks of metal. Some of this crud is presumably coming from the inside of the rollers as they wear - I can't see how leaving this in place can prolong the life of the chain or be in anyway beneficial.
    <font size="1">May all your tail winds be up-drafts</font id="size1">
  • aracer
    aracer Posts: 1,649
    I certainly disagree with the KMC advice - as others have said the dirt does get inside the chain, and if you don't remove this then it will wear your chain. The secret for getting rid of the degreaser when you've used it to clean the chain is multiple washes in water - the degreaser dissolves in the water, but if you don't get rid of all the water after using that to flush, it won't affect any oil you then put on like the degreaser would (though putting the chain in a warm oven soon gets rid of the water anyway if you've removed it to clean).

    Can't say I have any problem getting lube back into the inside of the chain when I've cleaned like this - simply run the lube onto one side of the inside of the chain so that it can work into the bushings.
  • dodgy
    dodgy Posts: 2,890
    Mozza1 wrote:
    These days I just wipe the chain with a cloth soaked with degreaser (whilst turning the cranks), let it dry & lube with Pro Link.
    Can’t say that either method makes much difference to chain life.

    Yep, precisely what I do, I'm a recent convert to this practice. I do it after every single ride, no matter how knackered I am. It only takes 2 minutes and it means I start my next ride with a clean drivetrain.

    Another tip that might be useful to share is that I used to clean my cassette using the edge of a cloth stretched between two hands and rubbed between the gaps in the cogs. But now I find it far easier to wrap part of an old T-Shirt around a (expired) credit card and insert it into the same gap, it means you have the other hand free to steady the bike or spin the cranks. Works a treat 8)
    Dave.
  • comsense
    comsense Posts: 245
    [quote="dodgy
    Another tip that might be useful to share is that I used to clean my cassette using the edge of a cloth stretched between two hands and rubbed between the gaps in the cogs. But now I find it far easier to wrap part of an old T-Shirt around a (expired) credit card and insert it into the same gap, it means you have the other hand free to steady the bike or spin the cranks. Works a treat 8)
    Dave.[/quote]
    Great tip. Reminds me of a fella I used to know. He couldn't resist handing out his business card to impress the rest of us. One day one of the lads asked me why I always took the his card - They were handy for cleaning between the sprockets.