Help!!

SteveR_100Milers

After yet another extremely disapponting and frankly disheartening 10 I need some help. My speed in TT events is actually getting relatively slower as this season progresses, and has done since the start of last season, as benchmarked against a number of riders who I ride against week in week out. Most people are either improving as the season progresses, at worst are staying still. My times have dropped off by nearly a minute on average.

Whilst I don't have masses of time to train, 7-9 hours a week ought to have some benefit, especially when I ride at an effort and intensity that is similar to a lot of other riders and experienes of people on this forum, plus advice from several books. As a rough guide, most of my rides are done at >75% MHR, and involve at least 1 x 10TT effort each week.

I am reasonably confident about %HR ranges on the basis that my TT efforts sit just under the LT (per Friel definition) according to HR traces, and from PE I really don't think I could put much more effort in. I don't have access to, and wont to a power meter, though I can understand the benefit of using one, so I have to rely on PE and HR as a quantifiable measure; but ultimately it comes down to a simple fact: the training I am doing is having no effect on increasing my TT power output. At 9/10 TT effort say during a normal training loop, I can see tangible improvement, but not at 10/10 effort.

Maybe I am setting unrealistic targets, having been off the bike for 15 years until 2006, and not led a very healthy lifestyle in the intervening years, but I simply am at a loss as to why I am showing no improvement, in fact a deterioration!

So some questions that spring to mind for me are:

1. Have I done enough base aerobic training? (probably not, but does this explain such poor results?)

2. Do statins have such a long term detrimental effect? I have tried not taking them 3-4 days before ane event, but this has had no positive benefit.

3. In a 7-9 hour week, how much training should be at TT pace to improve with a relatively low base? To quantify improvement, improving by 15 seconds from a PB of 24:30 would be satisfactory for a seasons improvement.

I cant think of any more, any comments greatly appreciated.

Yours desperate of Cardiff, about to pack the whole stupid lark in

Alex_Simmons/RST

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

I don't have access to, and wont to a power meter, though I can understand the benefit of using one, so I have to rely on PE and HR as a quantifiable measure; but ultimately it comes down to a simple fact: the training I am doing is having no effect on increasing my TT power output.

Unfortunately, you have no way of justifying that statement, unless you are actually measuring power output.

Improving times in TTs is more than simply increased average power.

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

1. Have I done enough base aerobic training? (probably not, but does this explain such poor results?)

Not sure how you expect anyone to be able to tell? To answer this would require detailed knowledge of your season's training history.

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

3. In a 7-9 hour week, how much training should be at TT pace to improve with a relatively low base? To quantify improvement, improving by 15 seconds from a PB of 24:30 would be satisfactory for a seasons improvement.

That really depends on many things, not least of which is the phase of the season and your unique physiological characteristics.

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

I cant think of any more, any comments greatly appreciated.

Yours desperate of Cardiff, about to pack the whole stupid lark in

Racing regularly through a season often creates a reduction in performance if the training is inappropriately structured. IOW, in your efforts to race regularly you are inadvertently "running out of base" by having all these mini-tapers before a race. In power meter speak, this is known as constantly leaking your Chronic Training Load.

Why not have a break from 10s and get back to some fun training instead. No point racing if you are not enjoying it. Come back to it when your mind is ready.

SteveR_100Milers

Thanks Alex.

WRT power output, yes of course you are correct, without measuring output I cannot know if it is up or down. So the correct assumption is that the training is having no effect on my speed, which is of course related to power, but I recognise there are other variables to consider.

Base training was no more than 6 -7 hours a week through the winter mostly at PE of 4-6. I keep a log of hours and effort (by HR) which I could show you if it helps.

Which phyiological factors do I need to test/measure in order to answer No.3?

Problem I have is I am somewhat competitive, and most of the fun of cycling for me is from racing. Remove that and riding just becomes a chore given the the UK climate and attitude of other road users.

Ric_Stern/RST

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

Whilst I don't have masses of time to train, 7-9 hours a week ought to have some benefit, especially when I ride at an effort and intensity that is similar to a lot of other riders and experienes of people on this forum, plus advice from several books. As a rough guide, most of my rides are done at >75% MHR, and involve at least 1 x 10TT effort each week.

7 - 9 hrs per week is sufficient for many people. in fact i've coached 1st cat riders who 'only' have that amount of time available to them.

1. Have I done enough base aerobic training? (probably not, but does this explain such poor results?)

depends what you mean by "base". too many this means long steady rides, which essentially don't do much for your performance.

2. Do statins have such a long term detrimental effect? I have tried not taking them 3-4 days before ane event, but this has had no positive benefit.

i have briefly seen some stuff about statins and exercise. this however, is outside of my sphere of knowledge and not something i can answer. if i recall correctly there may be questions (and answers) in the archives at www.cyclingnews.com/fitness in the Q&A section. if there isn't there's some medical docs there who should be able to answer this for you.

3. In a 7-9 hour week, how much training should be at TT pace to improve with a relatively low base? To quantify improvement, improving by 15 seconds from a PB of 24:30 would be satisfactory for a seasons improvement.

ignoring the issue about statins (as i have no real idea as to how they play out) then a 15-sec improvement shouldn't be difficult to achieve, given that it's unlikely that you're at your genetic limit (i.e. your performance has decreased). Obviously, i have no idea if something else (e.g. your health) is 'holding' you back.

Ric

Ric_Stern/RST

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

Thanks Alex.

WRT power output, yes of course you are correct, without measuring output I cannot know if it is up or down. So the correct assumption is that the training is having no effect on my speed, which is of course related to power, but I recognise there are other variables to consider.

Given that your local friendly coach isn't that far away from you, you could have always asked him if he could have tested your power output... There are also others nearby who you may know who could have helped you out with regards to power testing (you possibly know some of them!)

ric

Jonathan15

As a rough guide, most of my rides are done at >75% MHR

Maybe you're doing this but stick hard efforts in in most of your rides. Don't have to be overly long efforts but make you feel that you're working hard. It helps to set a target that you are going to reach when doing this so you don't give up half way through! Repeat when you feel like it. These are fartlek intervals - I like doing these compared to totally structured intervals.

SteveR_100Milers

Jonathan15 wrote:

As a rough guide, most of my rides are done at >75% MHR

Maybe you're doing this but stick hard efforts in in most of your rides. Don't have to be overly long efforts but make you feel that you're working hard. It helps to set a target that you are going to reach when doing this so you don't give up half way through! Repeat when you feel like it. These are fartlek intervals - I like doing these compared to totally structured intervals.

Already doing this - to get an average of say 80% for a ride, then some of that time is >90% effort. Some of the ride is of course is below, but then you have to stop for traffic etc.

Ric, this had crossed my mind, but apart from ther general interest what will this do to help me unless I test it regularly (say once every 3 months?). This and maybe VO2 max. How much does a one off test costs? (roughly) for the following parameters:

Max aerobic power (FTP?)
MHR
VO2 max
Body fat

idaviesmoore

Maybe you're just damn tired

SteveR_100Milers

Not on 8 hours a week I'm not, and fatigue cannot last for 3 months.....and that includes holidays / a couple of weeks off the bike because of work comittments etc.

idaviesmoore

Virus? Fatigue can last a long time if your bodie's fighting infection. Especially if you're ripping your immune system to shreds doing '10's

bonk man

I take it that you are mid 30's to something in the forties if you dumped the bike for 15 years?
I am in a similar situation coming back to it [ 4 years ago] after years of not racing and I think in my case my work has been the number one limiter to performance, physical job and this makes the evening ten a bit tougher and recovery is not helped by having to work hard the morning after.
My times have stood still recently, I feel strong when racing but times are very similar on the same courses.....
Worse than this my times on the 25 course have been within 20 seconds over the last 4 years no matter how I try and what the weather is doing.

Your problem might be over training when in combination with your work and other hobbies, in which case take a week or 2 off the bike. An under lying health problem, are your glands up or any other symptoms however vague, plenty of strange viruses going around this summer?
Life distractions such as work or noisy neighbours affect performance...

Good luck with it. I will think of you during tonights hilly tt when I am struggling up the first big cllimb

guv001

Sorry for hijacking the thread Alex/Ric what is wrong with your website? I can't seem to access anything.

Alex_Simmons/RST

guv001 wrote:

Sorry for hijacking the thread Alex/Ric what is wrong with your website? I can't seem to access anything.

Ric can probably shed more light but it's being upgraded at the moment and I think most of the links are temporarily down unfortunately. Ric would have to give an ETA.

SteveR_100Milers

bonk man wrote:

I take it that you are mid 30's to something in the forties if you dumped the bike for 15 years?
I am in a similar situation coming back to it [ 4 years ago] after years of not racing and I think in my case my work has been the number one limiter to performance, physical job and this makes the evening ten a bit tougher and recovery is not helped by having to work hard the morning after.
My times have stood still recently, I feel strong when racing but times are very similar on the same courses.....
Worse than this my times on the 25 course have been within 20 seconds over the last 4 years no matter how I try and what the weather is doing.

Your problem might be over training when in combination with your work and other hobbies, in which case take a week or 2 off the bike. An under lying health problem, are your glands up or any other symptoms however vague, plenty of strange viruses going around this summer?
Life distractions such as work or noisy neighbours affect performance...

Good luck with it. I will think of you during tonights hilly tt when I am struggling up the first big cllimb

In one way am glad I am not alone, but conversely you also have my sympathy as it's very frustrating. I am trying an extended period off statins - i.e. 6 months and see what happens as my plateau in performance started at around the time I started taking them approx 12-13 months ago.

How did your hilly TT go?

I have a 25 on saturday - last year did a 1-01 on the sdame course so was hoping to go under the hour this year. Revised that target to a 1-03 on current form

Ric_Stern/RST

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

guv001 wrote:

Sorry for hijacking the thread Alex/Ric what is wrong with your website? I can't seem to access anything.

Ric can probably shed more light but it's being upgraded at the moment and I think most of the links are temporarily down unfortunately. Ric would have to give an ETA.

Hoping it's soon and sorry for the delay folks!

ric

Ric_Stern/RST

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

Ric, this had crossed my mind, but apart from ther general interest what will this do to help me unless I test it regularly (say once every 3 months?). This and maybe VO2 max. How much does a one off test costs? (roughly) for the following parameters:

Max aerobic power (FTP?)
MHR
VO2 max
Body fat

Testing allows several or more issues to be resolved in an indentifiable way

1) correct identification of training levels
2) identification of true physiological strengths and weakness
3) identify 'potential'
4) identify how much fat loss can be safely managed
5) development of training programme (i.e. to fit your strengths and weaknesses)
6) identification of improvements (or not) with multiple tests

Testing prices to be confirmed, please give me a shout in a couple weeks (although note that i am no longer local to you)

ric

SteveR_100Milers

Ric_Stern/RST wrote:

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

Ric, this had crossed my mind, but apart from ther general interest what will this do to help me unless I test it regularly (say once every 3 months?). This and maybe VO2 max. How much does a one off test costs? (roughly) for the following parameters:

Max aerobic power (FTP?)
MHR
VO2 max
Body fat

Testing allows several or more issues to be resolved in an indentifiable way

1) correct identification of training levels
2) identification of true physiological strengths and weakness
3) identify 'potential'
4) identify how much fat loss can be safely managed
5) development of training programme (i.e. to fit your strengths and weaknesses)
6) identification of improvements (or not) with multiple tests

Testing prices to be confirmed, please give me a shout in a couple weeks (although note that i am no longer local to you)
ric

Thanks.

So where the hell have they moved Bridgend too then??

Ric_Stern/RST

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

Ric_Stern/RST wrote:

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

Ric, this had crossed my mind, but apart from ther general interest what will this do to help me unless I test it regularly (say once every 3 months?). This and maybe VO2 max. How much does a one off test costs? (roughly) for the following parameters:

Max aerobic power (FTP?)
MHR
VO2 max
Body fat

Testing allows several or more issues to be resolved in an indentifiable way

1) correct identification of training levels
2) identification of true physiological strengths and weakness
3) identify 'potential'
4) identify how much fat loss can be safely managed
5) development of training programme (i.e. to fit your strengths and weaknesses)
6) identification of improvements (or not) with multiple tests

Testing prices to be confirmed, please give me a shout in a couple weeks (although note that i am no longer local to you)
ric

Thanks.

So where the hell have they moved Bridgend too then??

i can't for some reason update my profile. i've been in newport for the last 6months and move to stoke on trent next week!

ric

bonk man

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

bonk man wrote:

I take it that you are mid 30's to something in the forties if you dumped the bike for 15 years?
I am in a similar situation coming back to it [ 4 years ago] after years of not racing and I think in my case my work has been the number one limiter to performance, physical job and this makes the evening ten a bit tougher and recovery is not helped by having to work hard the morning after.
My times have stood still recently, I feel strong when racing but times are very similar on the same courses.....
Worse than this my times on the 25 course have been within 20 seconds over the last 4 years no matter how I try and what the weather is doing.

Your problem might be over training when in combination with your work and other hobbies, in which case take a week or 2 off the bike. An under lying health problem, are your glands up or any other symptoms however vague, plenty of strange viruses going around this summer?
Life distractions such as work or noisy neighbours affect performance...

Good luck with it. I will think of you during tonights hilly tt when I am struggling up the first big cllimb

In one way am glad I am not alone, but conversely you also have my sympathy as it's very frustrating. I am trying an extended period off statins - i.e. 6 months and see what happens as my plateau in performance started at around the time I started taking them approx 12-13 months ago.

How did your hilly TT go?

I have a 25 on saturday - last year did a 1-01 on the sdame course so was hoping to go under the hour this year. Revised that target to a 1-03 on current form

The first hill was the hardest...... it bit my bum and I thought I had really got it wrong on the 70 inch gear [it is part of the club fixed comp :? ] 500 ft of climb some of it 1 in 6 for about 2 miles straight up British Camp [have a look on an OS map and you will see what I mean] but the rest was ok and did a good time [slightly quicker than last year] in the end but it was a very good race night, light head wind for the first 5 miles then side and tail for the homeward bit.
The weather looks ok for the weekend, at least where we are so you might get a good time. I think the main thing is is not to panic if it feels a bit slow riding as it will most likely be the same for the other riders, sometimes I am going along thinking I am having a terrible ride in one section but it turns out everyone was cursing it

Are any of your club mates having a bad season? It has been a bit rough this year weather wise, it has been windy most nights for the club events which slows everyone down a bit, a couple of events have been cancelled because of crappy weather as well so this will have affected a lot of our local riders, even if only in a small way, it throws the season out of kilter if every Thursday night it is howling and chucking it down.
Did your quack tell you it was ok to stop the medication? It wouldn't do to keel over during a 10, your life insurance wouldn't pay up

Enjoy your Saturday

nmcgann

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

Not on 8 hours a week I'm not, and fatigue cannot last for 3 months.....and that includes holidays / a couple of weeks off the bike because of work comittments etc.

I have found time completely off the bike in the racing season can have a big effect. I had 2 weeks off due to work in early June and I lost about 5 weeks of performance gain in a stroke (measured by power). It took almost 2 weeks of training before I could really go into vo2max territory. I'm still not back to where I was.

Neil

SteveR_100Milers

@ Neil and bonk man:

Other work colleagues were on same trips (to Japan) and didnt suffer as much, indeed if at all (judgeing by times and subsequent training).

Bonkman - I alays compare my time to all the other riders in the club 10 every week and mesasure the time diff between my time and each of theirs.

SteveR_100Milers

Rode a 25 yesterday, switchd bike comp to cadence so as not to get too disheartened by a low average speed. I went walkabout mentaly for about 10 mins on the drag up to the highpoint, but held a solid 25/26 mph all the way to the end and decided it was worth digging in; but I know I cold have gne a little harder for perhaps 15-20s imporvement. About a week now without statins, and my time whilst far from great was only a minute down on same time last year in much harder condtions. Most others were 1-2 minutes slower than last week on the same course but in less windy conditions, so I am pleased, am just hoping the improvement is consistent, in which case it would apear to be the effect of statins.

bonk man

Got to the bottom of it..............................

Alex_Simmons/RST

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

Rode a 25 yesterday, switchd bike comp to cadence so as not to get too disheartened by a low average speed. I went walkabout mentaly for about 10 mins on the drag up to the highpoint, but held a solid 25/26 mph all the way to the end and decided it was worth digging in; but I know I cold have gne a little harder for perhaps 15-20s imporvement. About a week now without statins, and my time whilst far from great was only a minute down on same time last year in much harder condtions. Most others were 1-2 minutes slower than last week on the same course but in less windy conditions, so I am pleased, am just hoping the improvement is consistent, in which case it would apear to be the effect of statins.

That's a really interesting observation.

SteveR_100Milers

<Paranoia mode ON> I assume you weren';t being sarcastic Alex..

<Mode OFF>

The results are interesting (for me anyway)

2007 I was 00:11:11 down on the winner and was 65th place of 91 finishers (71%)
2008: 00:10:23 down on the winner 63rd in 101 finishers. (62%)

Given the variation of riders in the event I'll take that as an approximation to have got no worse in 12 months. which is a reverse of the trend I have seen this year so far = a degree of optimism.

Alex_Simmons/RST

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

<Paranoia mode ON> I assume you weren';t being sarcastic Alex..

<Mode OFF>

Not at all, I was being quite serious, it is an interesting observation.

SteveR_100Milers

Another update to this tedious saga..This is fascinating (for me anyway)

Tonights club 10 I smashed my PB by 25 seconds, which was an improvement of 40 seconds this seasons best. HR was same as it hs been all year, PE was marginally lower than it has been all season for all 10's.
More importantly I was between 45s and just over a minute up on riders A, B and C etc who have been slowly passing me and beating me so far this year, (at least until last week anway).

So this is now 10 days without atorvastatin, and I have noticed that whilst I am obviously going faster albeit on limited evidence, the effort "feels" completely different. My legs burn but recover much much faster, meaning I can dig in harder and for longer than I have been able to, all wth a lower ventilation effort (i.e. I don't huff and puff so hard, and don't experience that brief feeling of not being able to breathe hard enough). I can't see that this is simply some mental change, and it really does seem to be linked to the cessation of the statins. I should imagine there are a few (vets for sure) that take them so I'll keep you posted.
Yours, relieved from Cardiiff...

Alex_Simmons/RST

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

Tonights club 10 I smashed my PB by 25 seconds, which was an improvement of 40 seconds this seasons best.

johncp

Glad to hear things are improving Steve but I have to ask why you have been prescribed atorvastatin in the first place? Have you had a CV problem or is it just precautionary based on family history, blood pressure etc? Assuming you were already fit when you started the statin (and whether you really need it) you may be putting yourself at greater risk of heart attack/stroke for the sake of a new PB :shock: Might be a good idea to talk this over with GP as it may be that you don't need the statin or that a different one or a lower dose would suit you better

Cougar

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

Another update to this tedious saga..This is fascinating (for me anyway)

Tonights club 10 I smashed my PB by 25 seconds, which was an improvement of 40 seconds this seasons best. HR was same as it hs been all year, PE was marginally lower than it has been all season for all 10's.
More importantly I was between 45s and just over a minute up on riders A, B and C etc who have been slowly passing me and beating me so far this year, (at least until last week anway).

So this is now 10 days without atorvastatin, and I have noticed that whilst I am obviously going faster albeit on limited evidence, the effort "feels" completely different. My legs burn but recover much much faster, meaning I can dig in harder and for longer than I have been able to, all wth a lower ventilation effort (i.e. I don't huff and puff so hard, and don't experience that brief feeling of not being able to breathe hard enough). I can't see that this is simply some mental change, and it really does seem to be linked to the cessation of the statins. I should imagine there are a few (vets for sure) that take them so I'll keep you posted.
Yours, relieved from Cardiiff...

The effect of statins is proportionate to the dosage and the length of time you've taken it. It took a year @ 40Mg a day to affect me really badly. It then took another 12 months to recover enough to want to train properly again. Even now I don't know if there is any permanent damage. Personally I can't see how 10 days off statins can make that much difference to your performnace.

On the other hand re the evening of the 22nd, around here the weather condtions looked ideal for a fast ride and I commented as such to my wife. It could just be that your fitness has just caught up with the other guys. Re the statins well you know what I think. Cheers Mike

SteveR_100Milers

Glad to hear things are improving Steve but I have to ask why you have been prescribed atorvastatin in the first place? Have you had a CV problem or is it just precautionary based on family history, blood pressure etc? Assuming you were already fit when you started the statin (and whether you really need it) you may be putting yourself at greater risk of heart attack/stroke for the sake of a new PB Might be a good idea to talk this over with GP as it may be that you don't need the statin or that a different one or a lower dose would suit you better

1. Prescribed because I have hypertriglyceridaemia for which I take fenufibrates. These I have taken for 3+ years, no sde effects, blood trig levels now normal. BP is typically 110/70 measured lord now how many times now i last 2 years. Max I have seen is 130/80 prior to a gen anaesthetic......

2. After 12 months( Aug 2005) and annual blood lipid test LDL C was at ca 6 mol/mm in unexercised state weight 17.5st @ 186cm age 40).

3. +12months (2006) and regular cycling and some club racing Trigs stil OK, LDL-C@5.5 weight 15.5st GP and I discussed, recommended 10mg atorvastatin on basis that I have a familial lipid "isue" rather than an absolute level: "if you were a *normal* trig level non cycling beer drinking man then I wouldnt prescribe them, but since you have the trig levels that ou have then lets be safe". We discussed and I areed on basis lets trial it. I also have taken 30-100mg of COQ10 supplement as suggested by several authors including Holford.

4. Meanwhile, I track almost anally my times vs other "similar" riders on every club and open event. I take an average performance "index" that basically takes an average gap so as to reduce the effect of weather and individual poerformance, and have doe so since I started racing. I can show you a graph showing a long term tend of my times getting worse to an average group time. I also monitor my physiological effort though HR and this has been constant for racing for the last 18 months, i.e. my heart pumps as hard now as it did then, in fact its got slightly better by about 2-3 BPM on average for a steady TT effort, which I would expect given the base I started from.

5. I stopped takin the statins several times over the last 12 months for 2-3 days before an event, maybe with imited success (last years 100 was OK for example), but less so this year. Plus, the degenerative effects of statins appear to be continous (gooel search lots of info on this too cite) , i.e. if you suffer a negative reaction, then the longer you take them, the bigger the effect, so it takes a while if you are borderline to notice the effects.

6. I have in this "trial" stopped now for 2 weeks. The data is limited, but the PE "feel" is clear to me. However, a 2 week trial is far from conclusive, so will not take them at least until the end of the season, and contnue to measure the effects. Enough for me to get excited...premature? maybe, but we'll see. I know the feeling in my legs which is why PE is so important.

7. Ultimately it's a balance of statistical risk, which after all is al the benefit of taking statins is for most people without a history of cardiac / CV clinical probems. GP acknowledges that its a statistical benefit rather tha a "take it or you will die" situation.

8. My choice would appear in simple terms to be take tem or dont take them.

Take them - and contnue to be frustrated at cycle racing. I am very competitive by nature, so the chances are i would lose interest without improvement/performance. So coch potatoe, but am OK as I take statins so pass me another beer.

Don't take them - huge assumption but if true then my performance wlll carry on from what it once was, and that great feeling of doing well, riding hard etc. Bring on those endorphins. OK so my arteries fur up 3 years (on average) earlier but keeping fit by cycling could offset the same.

I'm not making some rash decision here, it's based upon informed data from GP (who I have to say is a great guy) and observation/actual results. A power meter to measure a before and after scenario would have been really really useful but hey ho, TT times will do for me