Motorbikes v Mountain Bikes

miket-62

Are they (the manufactors) having our eyes out with the cost of a mountain bike verses a motorbike?
Don't get me wrong I love my mtb but I just don't see where the costs go compared to a motorbike?!?
You can buy a "reasonable" motor bike for the same (ish) price as a top of the range MTB
Think about it...
The motorbike has all the features as the mtb
Research/Development
Carbon fibre
Front/Back suspension
Plus a HUGE engine! lol With a the research time involved in that!
Whats the crack
How come MTB's cost soo much?
Any ideas?

ride_whenever

Economies of scale, supply and demand. Also a bigger racing scene (trickle down fun)

uk_mr_brownstone

I valid question- I've always wondered how my mountain bike is worth more than my old motorbike!

ride_whenever wrote:

Economies of scale, supply and demand

probably pretty much answers it- they're worth it because we'll pay it!

the 'scene' is pretty similar too- I remember reading the (motor)bike mags and I really, REALLY needed a slightly faster, slightly grippier, slightly revvier motorbike than I already had because a pro-tester on a purpose built race track with way more skill then me could just about notice it rode slightly better than the last years model. You can imagine why I needed it- what I could do on it on slimy British roads, in the rain, with my awesome skills could've been amazing!!

dave_hill

Supply and demand. Look at the big bike companies, like Trek, Giant, Specialized - their bottom end bikes are dirt cheap. They knock them out in their thousands with cheaper materials and less workmanship.

Then look at the higher end bikes. Better quality materials, possibly hand-laced wheels, hand built. For every Stumpjumper out there there's probably 50 Hardrocks.

bikeperson45

less maintenence

DanEvs

I totally agree that we are getting shafted.

Motorcycle manufacturers spend millions and millions on R&D programmes, Racing teams advertising etc yet can still knock out a brand new 600cc supersport bike for about the same as a scott scale LTD. :shock:

Now where is the sense in that?

My KX250F motocross bike has a massive alloy frame, an engine full of exotic materials (never mind the masses of design and development.), super high quality suspension and yet it retails for £1000 less than aforementioned XC bike. :?

We get royally fcuked by the cycling industry on all fronts and it's a shame to say that it's only going to get worse.

willy b

Well i agree with what has been said really, although cars are cheaper than bikes too lol.

The design and reserrch into suspension in bikes is amazing!! Think out it, with a motorbike, as long as it works, the efficiency isn't "that" relevant, as your not powering it yourself. With a bike you poer everything yourself, now help, thus meaning everything has to work perfectly.
This means that more development goes into mountain bikes, as in terms of frame design etc... they are far far more advanced!

DanEvs

willy b wrote:

Well i agree with what has been said really, although cars are cheaper than bikes too lol.

The design and reserrch into suspension in bikes is amazing!! Think out it, with a motorbike, as long as it works, the efficiency isn't "that" relevant, as your not powering it yourself. With a bike you poer everything yourself, now help, thus meaning everything has to work perfectly.
This means that more development goes into mountain bikes, as in terms of frame design etc... they are far far more advanced!

I'm sorry dude but that's horse sh*t.

You strip down you rock shox and check out how basic it is. A motorcycle fork is far more advanced, works at all levels (for the majority of weights.) and deals with the following-

10mph potholes
160mph bumps
Pillions
luggage
150mph-40mph braking

All with no fuss, no issues and no compromise, the two markets cannot be compared. I'm an avid MTBer but I'd be the first to admit that the MTB industry is just playing at development.

I'm pretty sure that anyone could build a semi decent trail bike in a small workshop with the right kit. Could you build a motorbike????

Motorcycle (and automotive in genera.) development is light years ahead. :!: l

skyliner

All the evidence you need is that Allen Millyard, a custom motorcycle builder, was able to build his son a better DH race bike than any of the major manufacturers, IN HIS GARAGE.
For less than you'd pay for a "off the shelf" bike. Because it was all done "in house".

I've built my bike with FR/DH and Slopestyle/Trail setups for less than £1000 based on a 05 Kona Coiler frame.(which i got cheap)
I do have access to workshop facilities, and cheap parts though. And I'm very happy with it, and I don't want to change it anytime soon, because it's my creation.
(Although I still want an Orange 5 for trails after riding our demo bikes)

But if I wanted to employ somebody to design it, pay 12 companies to supply the parts, and then pay for independent testing to evaluate it, and another company to market it,
the cost of my bike would probably escalate to over £5000 RRP.(given that RRP is normally 4X production costs + tax)
That would equate to about £2500 trade cost. Multiply this by 50000, and deduct the discounts applied for volume, and you'll come out with the approximate RRP of £2000.( in theory of course)

While companies like Specialized are trying to emulate the motorcycle industry by building completely "in house", they are launching products with teething problems far too early trying to keep up with developments, and are not doing themselves any favours in the process.
They will get there eventually, but I feel they'll be chasing new technology and copying it for a few years before they can compete on a even playing field. Only then will prices of good quality bikes drop significantly.

willy b

DanEvs wrote:

10mph potholes
160mph bumps
Pillions
luggage
150mph-40mph braking

Thats like compairing a f1 car to a quad bike though. Built for different things though they

Ok maybe motorbikes (as in road) are sophisticated (i'm not sure), but motox bikes are relativly simple. I wasn't on about the suspension, more the frame design, and how everything pivots. Motox bikes use a single pivot system, mountain bikes, well a fair few lol.

:roll:

I do see what you mean

kenone

lol when me and a few mates go for a ride the bikes in the back of my old royal mail sherpa are prob worth ten times what the vans worth...
Definately a case of the size of the market, i cant believe how popular its getting.
Atleast 6 of my mates have purchased bikes in the last couple of months, who prob hadnt been on one for prob 10 or 15 years.

DanEvs

willy b wrote:

Thats like compairing a f1 car to a quad bike though. Built for different things though they

Ok maybe motorbikes (as in road) are sophisticated (i'm not sure), but motox bikes are relativly simple. I wasn't on about the suspension, more the frame design, and how everything pivots. Motox bikes use a single pivot system, mountain bikes, well a fair few lol.

:roll:

I do see what you mean

Oh my god, I give up! :roll:

A formula one car costs how much??? And a quad??? I rest my case your honour!

MotoX bikes use EXTREMELY complex rising rate linkage systems (exceptions are KTM and Husaberg.) with massive amounts of development over the years, not a single pivot!

The Millyard point says it all.

I get the impression that this discussion is probably above the majority of people in here.

willy b

DanEvs wrote:

willy b wrote:

Thats like compairing a f1 car to a quad bike though. Built for different things though they

Ok maybe motorbikes (as in road) are sophisticated (i'm not sure), but motox bikes are relativly simple. I wasn't on about the suspension, more the frame design, and how everything pivots. Motox bikes use a single pivot system, mountain bikes, well a fair few lol.

:roll:

I do see what you mean

Oh my god, I give up! :roll:

A formula one car costs how much??? And a quad??? I rest my case your honour!

MotoX bikes use EXTREMELY complex rising rate linkage systems (exceptions are KTM and Husaberg.) with massive amounts of development over the years, not a single pivot!

The Millyard point says it all.

I get the impression that this discussion is probably above the majority of people in here.

I have one thing to say to that...you win :roll:

big-hitter

anyone else noticed that most dh bikes have more travel than moto-x bikes?

the fact is its a rip off BUT most of the cheap dirt bikes are built in asia my a big machine and a baby with no hands thats why they are so cheap.

also falling off a moto-bike hurts more and i suspect most of them are designed to try and crush you if you fall.

trust me ive done both.

DanEvs

big-hitter wrote:

anyone else noticed that most dh bikes have more travel than moto-x bikes?

the fact is its a rip off BUT most of the cheap dirt bikes are built in asia my a big machine and a baby with no hands thats why they are so cheap.

also falling off a moto-bike hurts more and i suspect most of them are designed to try and crush you if you fall.

trust me ive done both.

*Cough* MX bikes typically have 300mm at the front and 310mm at the rear. You find me a DH bike with that kind of travel and I'll eat my hat.

I'm going to stop arguing now as this is about to go off topic.

mr mangos

I reckon it's 99% to do with economies of scale and the relative size of the markets. In the last 12 months Honda have sales of $95m compared to Specialized's 2007 total of $20m. Also Honda, despite their innovative reputation, spend just under 5% of revenue on R&D, which is a third of what they spend on sales/admin. I don't know what Specialized spend on R&D but my guess is it's more than that (as a percentage).

Another thing to consider is that if bicycle companies are shafting us, why have so many fallen prey to mergers and buyouts? The industry is very homogenised already with the likes of Pacific Cycle and the Trek group.

Just some food for thought.

Incidentally I think if you asked Mr. Millyard to build you one of his DH bikes it'd cost you a damn sight more than any other DH bike on the market. Sure the raw materials might be less but factor in his considerable expertise and time and you'd be talking megabucks. There's a lot more to the cost of consumer goods than just the materials.

DanEvs

mr mangos wrote:

I reckon it's 99% to do with economies of scale and the relative size of the markets. In the last 12 months Honda have sales of $95m compared to Specialized's 2007 total of $20m. Also Honda, despite their innovative reputation, spend just under 5% of revenue on R&D, which is a third of what they spend on sales/admin. I don't know what Specialized spend on R&D but my guess is it's more than that (as a percentage).

Another thing to consider is that if bicycle companies are shafting us, why have so many fallen prey to mergers and buyouts? The industry is very homogenised already with the likes of Pacific Cycle and the Trek group.

Just some food for thought.

Innacurate food for thought. :P

From Honda Financial review--
Japan's second-largest carmaker, Honda made a net profit of 592.3bn yen ($5bn; £2.5bn) for the 12 months to 31 March, down from 597bn yen a year earlier.

£2.5 BILLION PROFIT

Now tell me about that 5% R&D cost (which won't take into account race team expenditure etc.).

skyliner

Exactly my point. MTB companies outsouce R&D, and Motorcycle companies have R&D depts. in house. The same goes for parts, and frame building.
Their spend in percentage terms will be vastly different, impacting on the RRP of the finished product.
Plus a £2000 MTB is marketed as a "performance bike". Try buying a performance motorcycle for the same money.
It's a totally different market. You cannot make a direct comparison on price.

skyliner

As I said, he'd built it for less than the price of a current DH race bike.
And then went on to explain how the cost would would escalate if he were to mass produce it for the market based on the theroretical costs of my project bike.

It would be less confusing if you added the last sentence in new post rather than as an edit. I thought I'd missed something at first.

mr mangos

Innacurate food for thought. :P

From Honda Financial review--
Japan's second-largest carmaker, Honda made a net profit of 592.3bn yen ($5bn; £2.5bn) for the 12 months to 31 March, down from 597bn yen a year earlier.

£2.5 BILLION PROFIT

Now tell me about that 5% R&D cost (which won't take into account race team expenditure etc.).

I got it from a financial website but I *thought* $95m sounded low! $5bn net profit sounds much more likely and knocks the likes of Specialized into a cocked hat. On that basis I'd say MTB pricing is definitely the result of market size. I'd still guess that Specialized spend more than 5% on R&D though.

Bloody hell. £2.5 billion quid.

DanEvs

As Skyliner quite rightly says I think the two markets are incomparable.

I think the majority of the problem comes from fashion and "in" products, we all know that we'd pay three times as much for a Thomson branded stem as we would for an identical Bikehut item and I guess that's why we end up paying the premium. Ho hum. :roll:

Right, I'm off to test ride the new KTM RC8 at my local dealer, a snip at £10,600.

switchback18

If there was a large 'rip-off' margin, it wouldn't take much time for one of the manufacturers to realize they could slash prices by say 20% & take a much higher stake of the market quite quickly. As this hasn't happened, prices are either fair(ish) or there's price fixing going on - and there's no evidence of that.

As it goes, up to now, prices seem to get a bit less every year, or the spec of bikes gets better, sometimes both.

Also, regarding the Millyard bike; in paid employment I've never earned more than about £9 per hour. I'm guessing that many on the forum earn a huge amount more than that, and would feel they're worth it. IMO, the level of expertise neccessary to be able to build something like the Millyard would be worth a huge hourly rate, on top of R&D etc. So the retail cost would be large, because no-one sells stuff for no profit. If a manager can be worth £40000 a year (£20 per hour) for having a bog standard degree, what's someone worth who's as rare an idividual as Millyard? It amazes me how many people expect to be paid by their employer, but expect businesses to work for no profit.

I

stumpyjon

^^ I was about to make the same point switchback, if there was a significant margin being made somebody would have already undercut it, it's not like there's only a few players in the market.

Again if there is a big margin being made we'll see prices come down rather than go up as expected in the next year or two as the credit crunch kicks in. I know aluminium prices etc. are going through the roof but the actual amount of aluminium in the average frame is peanuts, maybe 5-8 Kg (including brakes forks etc.) works out at £ 12 for a raw price of £1500 per tonne for Ali. Other metals will be generally cheaper, say the entire raw material cost for a bike is no more than £ 50 to £100 for a £ 2k full susser. Most of the cost will be in the manufacturing of the materials (hydroforming etc.), admin, transport and R & D. These are all costs that can be reduced primarily through economies of scale.

Bikerbaboon

Its a free market out there, not one of the bike manufacturers are putting a gun against your head forcing you to pay for it.

I also think that a direct comparison between the motorbikes sus and a DH rigs sus is mixing the message, the big thing in MTB is weight, ( even more so in XC) its the rebound dampaning thats tricky to sort at a low weight on a motorbike people dont cry if its 1kg more as you can just tune it more for more bhp ( most sold bikes have alot of room for tunning) but have an extra 1kg on a mtb is a big deal.

people charge what other people will pay, thats what sets the value of anything. Not the object that you are buying or even the cost in makeing it. mass production allows the companys to drop the production costs that allows cusotmers to bargin the price lower with out putting hte manufacturers out of bussines.

if you think the bike that you are buying is not worth the price you are paying then dont buy it.

ExeterSimon

Bottom line is this....they charge that amount because we keep paying it.

I do hate it when people moan about the price of things....it's simple...if you think it's too expesive don't buy it.

Buying it just says to the maker that you are happy with the price.

supersonic

Have to factor in weight as well, as bikes have engines. Take a 1k MTB and a 1k motorbike. Now it doesn't matter if the motorbike has a few extra pounds here on the wheels or fork, or a heavy steel chassis, and loads of steel parts as there is an engine that ups the power to weight ratio. These parts can be made cheaply. With an MTB we need to trim weight of EVERYTHING to make them rideable, yet still have strength. This costs. Add to that scales of economy, and you can start to see a difference.

Look at an 100 quid full susser: it still has a frame, 2 shocks, disc brakes, 21 gears etc etc, but the difference between it an an 1000 quid full susser is night and day. You can only really make direct comparisions within your own market.

Like saying why buy a watch for 100 quid when you can buy a grandfather clock?

Splasher

There's no such a thing as a £1k motorbike - bear with me on this. A £1k motorbike is a 5 year old £5k motorbike that our distorted sense of newness has depreciated accordingly. To truly compare like for like, the pushbike would have to be 5 years old as well.

Cost comes down to two basic premises both of which have been mentioned already. First is weight. 100g on a 450cc MX bike does not justify an extra £250, but it does on a top of the range push bike. Second, whilst the £500-£1500 push-bikes are produced in huge volumes, the £4-8k ones are not, but £4-8k motorbikes are.

My ZX12 was £8200, my Reign was £2000. Both have descent suspension, and a reasonable alloy frame, wheels, bars, seat. For the extra £6200, I got an engine, tank and bodywork on the Kwacker. Seems about right to me.

clarkson

i've often thought about that point. but having read that, i can kinda see where people are coming from.

mtbs have to be lightweight and strong to make them rideable. also suspension has to be efficient, whereas on a motorbike, these things dont really matter too much. the manufacturing process to make them light and strong adds to the cost of an mtb, whereas, i suspect on a motorbike, stuff isnt hydroformed or shot-peened or whatever.

Anonymous

DanEvs wrote:

MotoX bikes use EXTREMELY complex rising rate linkage systems (exceptions are KTM and Husaberg.) with massive amounts of development over the years, not a single pivot!

really? :shock:
last time I looked (a long time ago!) MS bikes had single pivot swingarms, with complex linkages to drive the shock.
Are they really using linkage suspension these days? man alive that must be complicated to keep the chain length constant.