Running as training for cycling

Mikey joe

Hello

I'm training for some rides this summer an "undulating" 140miler and the Bealach na Ba. We're having a baby soon so my free time is going to become limited. I can commute to work (17 mile round trip) but that's not really enough. While I hope to get some longer trips at the weekends I'm unlikely to have the time or energy to get out after work when the evenings are longer.

I've been trying to find ways to improove my fitness especially my leg strength for thwe hills, so I've started running at lunchtime, Initally I have a 2.5 mile loop that takes me 20 minutes with a hill finish.

Will this be benenfical for my bike riding?

Has anyone got any sugggestions as how to squeeze the most out of limited time to train??

Cheers

Mj

SteveR_100Milers

get a turbo, then you don't have to leave the house. Boring as hell, but if you can apply yourself they can be effective.

BlackHelmet

I believe you'll find a lot of people on this forum both run and cycle. I'm one of them. You'll also find that some top class fell runners use cycling as part of their training. So that tells me there's real cross benefits - especially for hills. I've often read that cycling hills and running hills has a similar training benefit.

A 20 minute run will do you good initially but I think you need to maximise effort during that 20 minutes e.g. 5 mins warm-up, 12 mins tempo, 3 mins warm-down. Running hill repetitions during that 20 minutes will also be good. Though a longer run would be better.

One thing I often do it combine running and cycling for a more intensive and varied session e.g. commute home from work (19 miles) immediately followed by a 20 minute run.

Mikey joe

Thanks for the advice folks.

I don't think I can get a turbo trainer. I think I'd rather eat it than sit on it even with an ipod etc ;-))

I do hope to ramp my running up a bit but TBH while I'm a novice at cycling I'm a complete beginner at running.

What I do like about it though is you can doa lot of damage in 20 minutes

I'm fairly confiedent I can build up enough stamina and CV fitness to handle the flats but my weak point is hill climbing!

I'm hoping to use running to try and boost that. What about gym excercsies such as squats, lunges etc?

Alex_Simmons/RST

Almost any aerobic exercise is better than nothing, esp if you can't ride. But nothing beats riding a bike to get better at riding a bike.

Weights are good for general fitness/tone etc but won't do much for you when it comes to an aerobic activity such as riding a bike (even up a hill). But do 'em if you can't do anyting else and you enjoy it.

Toks

Mikey joe wrote:

Hello

I'm training for some rides this summer an "undulating" 140miler and the Bealach na Ba. We're having a baby soon so my free time is going to become limited. I can commute to work (17 mile round trip) but that's not really enough. While I hope to get some longer trips at the weekends I'm unlikely to have the time or energy to get out after work when the evenings are longer.

I've been trying to find ways to improove my fitness especially my leg strength for thwe hills, so I've started running at lunchtime, Initally I have a 2.5 mile loop that takes me 20 minutes with a hill finish.

Will this be benenfical for my bike riding?

Has anyone got any sugggestions as how to squeeze the most out of limited time to train??

Cheers

Mj

It really depends how seriously you're taking this Bealack Na Ba. A friend did it some years a go and said it was tougher than the Etape...If you plan on being quite competitive then a turbo as mentioned by Steve is the perfect time saving device which will definitley improve your bike-fitness. However if you just intend to complete the event then I'm sure you'll get by with running and cycling. Just don't kid yourself - you only get good at what you practice.

Mikey joe

Cheers

I'm not trying to win these races, just complete them in a time I'm happy with. I'm aware too that the ideal way to train is to get on the bike and ride, However I won't have the free time to put in as much bike time as I'd like so I'm trying to think of the best return on the time I do train for.

Last year I completed a 135 mile trip in 8 hours so if I can beat that this year I'll be very happy. I've no idea about the bealach - only been over it in a car. At this stage all I want for that is dry sunny weather ;-)

Thanks to all for your advice it is much appreciated.

whyamihere

The problem with running is that it uses different muscles to cycling. For people who never run, but cycle a lot, going for a run will be very, very painful if they go as far as their heart and lungs tell them to. Same the other way round, a runner going for a ride will find that their legs give up long before their lungs.

It is good aerobic exercise, so if you can do it, you will gain benefit from it. However, it's unlikely to help your leg muscles.

Mike Willcox

whyamihere wrote:

The problem with running is that it uses different muscles to cycling. For people who never run, but cycle a lot, going for a run will be very, very painful if they go as far as their heart and lungs tell them to. Same the other way round, a runner going for a ride will find that their legs give up long before their lungs.

It is good aerobic exercise, so if you can do it, you will gain benefit from it. However, it's unlikely to help your leg muscles.

I agree. On the other hand there are those who say that it's ALL about CV fitness and you don't need strength. In fact most anyone has got enough strength to climb Alp D'Huez very fast but the only reason thay can't is because of their lack of CV fitness. Unfortunately that doesn't apply to runners. Strange eh?

SteveR_100Milers

I gave up running as it absolutely wrecked my legs, I could hardly walk for a couple of days afterwards unless i did it at least twice a week. I calculated that sitting on the sofa and drinking cider was better all round for me...

Nelson Longflap

Started running gently 3 months ago for the hell of it, and it's taken me almost that long to be able to run for an hour plus. (Seems to take the muscles longer to adapt the older I get). I use a heart rate monitor, and try to run at around 75% of my cycling max heart rate - with the odd 200 yard sprint/hill unscientifically thrown in. When back on my bike, I find that I can push a bigger gear for the same heart rate and cadence as before, and I'm finding it hard to do the longer and steadier base miles, because riding at a higher 'sweet-spot' intensity for two hours or so feels more natural - and fun. (Although you'd probably get this this performance benefit from doing 2 x 20 type intervals on a turbo.) So, I'm pretty sure that the running has markedly increased my aerobic power. Interestingly, the three 2nd cats in my club are ex-runners, so there must be something going for it!

One thing I've found with running is to build up gradually and STRETCH before and after. Find some "itb stretches" through Google or wherever and don't forget to do them. I say this because I now have a mild case of 'runner's knee' (self-diagnosed - so probably incorrect!) through not doing so - . which means I can't ride my bike up a hill at the moment without pain!

Good luck with the Bealach. It's such a great climb.

Toks

On the flight back from my first Etape in 2003 I can remember one chap who had been been picked up by the broom wagon after the first climb. As part of his training he had done the great north Run, The London Marathon and a couple of 10ks and cyclingwise 10 mile commutes and the odd 30mile bike ride. Says it all really : specificity specificity specificity

graeme_s-2

When I started running last year to train for my first triathlon, I noticed an improvement in my climbing while cycling very quickly. I suspect this was partly because nothing hurt quite as much as the running did, so it was more an adjustment in my perceived effort.

jpembroke

Whilst any exercise is going to be good for your overall CV fitness, I'm not sure that running is going to be of much benefit when it comes to doing 140 miles rides. The only way to train for that is by spending hours in the saddle and working on your hill climbing.

I sympathise though mate. I have a young daughter and another one on the way. I've just had to be realistic and have pretty much shelved long distance riding in favour of hill running and cyclocross, which complement each other well. This means I only train for 1 hour at a time, which fits in with my family life, and I've discovered that I actually prefer it this way (had some good placings in both running and cyclocross races).

I'm not trying to suggest that long distance cycling and families are completely incompatible but let's face it, you do have to be rather single-minded when it comes to training for these events. Personally, I'd rather not: it's tiring enough having a young family without getting up early to do a 5 hour ride.

Best of luck mate. Look forward to hearing your baby news.

BlackHelmet

jpembroke wrote:

I'm not sure that running is going to be of much benefit when it comes to doing 140 miles rides. The only way to train for that is by spending hours in the saddle and working on your hill climbing.

From personal experience I disagree. I completed the Welsh 12hr in September last year and did 230+ miles. I did this on the back of just 2 rides all year that were over 50 miles. Most of my cycling is just 19 mile commutes 2 or 3 times a week. All quality training last year was running with cycling being little more than recovery sessions.

But, that's not to say I couldn't be a much better cyclist if I stopped running :?

Mikey joe

Wow - there seems to be a bit of a split on this! It's interesting to hear both viewpoints. Is there an advantage instead of running to doing some short intensive bike rides. I have a 6% hill about quarter mile long at work. Would repeatedly climbing this for 20 minutes be better than pounding the pavement do you think??

Cheers!

I am hoping to get some bigger mileage rides in on the odd weekend?

BlackHelmet

Undoubtedly. Though I personally wouldn't bother with cycling if I only had 20 minutes.

And it just goes to show that training isn't an exact art - it's personal. So when someone says "The only way to train for that..." they usually mean "One of the ways to train for that..."

Mike Willcox

When I worked in London the building was about 10 storeys high and at the end was a flight of stairs that hardly anyone used. In the winter months to complement my ride to/from work I would change into T shirt and shorts and run up and down the stairs a few times.

It used to make my thighs burn like mad and get the heart and lungs working hard. I felt like it did me good at the time. I got better at climbing the stairs but I also felt it made it easier when climbing hills on the bike, although I can't be sure.

All non-scientific but IMO better than doing nothing

onabike

I used do run 10ks and also circuit train. Personally I never found it helped my cycling. Only cycling helped my cycling.
I guess doing some steady runs ( not too fast or far) would help your general fitness, weight loss e.t.c. but too much could even detract as you may find running + cycling could lead to tight muscles and over-use injuries.
I found swimming to be a much better compliment to cycling. It's just nice to be working a different part of the body whilst giving the legs a rest ready for the next good effort on the bike.

BlackHelmet

onabike wrote:

I used do run 10ks and also circuit train. Personally I never found it helped my cycling. Only cycling helped my cycling.

Do you mind if I ask: At the time, were you looking at using running as a means to improve your cycling?

Matchstick Man

Mike Willcox wrote:

[ On the other hand there are those who say that it's ALL about CV fitness and you don't need strength. In fact most anyone has got enough strength to climb Alp D'Huez very fast but the only reason thay can't is because of their lack of CV fitness. Unfortunately that doesn't apply to runners. Strange eh?

Why doesn't it? I could probably out bench press a lot of elite marathon runners but they'd kick my harris when running as they have better CV fitness and are more efficient.
You haven't really got this particular argument have you Mike?

Mike Willcox

Matchstick Man wrote:

Mike Willcox wrote:

[ On the other hand there are those who say that it's ALL about CV fitness and you don't need strength. In fact most anyone has got enough strength to climb Alp D'Huez very fast but the only reason thay can't is because of their lack of CV fitness. Unfortunately that doesn't apply to runners. Strange eh?

Why doesn't it? I could probably out bench press a lot of elite marathon runners but they'd kick my harris when running as they have better CV fitness and are more efficient.
You haven't really got this particular argument have you Mike?

Please read what I said to get my meaning. It was obviously too subtle for you.

Let me explain.
My point is: -

1) Runners have CV fitness

2) It has been said that strength is not a factor when it comes to a rider climbing on a bike as when measured it is shown that any normal fit person has got sufficient strength. It has been said that CV fitness alone governs the power output.

3) On that basis is it not logical that if strength is not a factor then anyone with a high level of CV fitness can get on a bike and just turn on the power on a long climb?

4) No they can't. We know that not to be true.

So therefore IMO it can't be all about CV fitness. IMO strength does have a part to play in prolonged power output. This is a contentious issue and has been debated on other threads. I was just making a passing reference and alluding to this in my post.

So I think I have got this particular argument very well thank you.

But what on earth are you going on about bench presses and marathon runners for? So marathon runners can run better than someone who might be able to out bench press them because of their better CV fitness. NO REALLY? Who would have thought?

nasahapley

Mike Willcox wrote:

When I worked in London the building was about 10 storeys high and at the end was a flight of stairs that hardly anyone used. In the winter months to complement my ride to/from work I would change into T shirt and shorts and run up and down the stairs a few times.

It used to make my thighs burn like mad and get the heart and lungs working hard. I felt like it did me good at the time. I got better at climbing the stairs but I also felt it made it easier when climbing hills on the bike, although I can't be sure.

All non-scientific but IMO better than doing nothing

I'm pretty sure that this kind of thing does help climbing ability; I read this article recently:

http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/news/prin ... AN=159&v=1

Ok so it's about running, but in the 'Science of hills' bit it talks about research that shows hill-runners to have very high levels of aerobic enzymes in their quads, which apparently help your muscles operate at high intensities for long periods without fatigue. Sounds like it would be helpful to cycling, but my knowledge of sport science ain't all that so I could be wrong.

From my own experience, I've found that since I've been able to go out fell-running more often (and actually cycling less), climbing on the bike seems easier. Even if there is in fact no physiological benefit from running up hills, it certainly does build mental fortitude.

alzeb

i am thinking of starting running on my rest day,i usually swim and hour solid and maybe do 30mins on the bike,but swimming is suddenly boring me,plus ive osteoporosis so if i ran fridays would it wreck my legs for sat racing?say 30mins run.............

cougie

I do Ironman triathlon. Before that I ran the London Marathon each year and kept up my cycling that I'd been doing since I was a kid.

Running does help your CV fitness undoubtedly, but you need to be able to be on a bike for what - 8 hours or more ? You need to find the time to get long rides in and get your body used to the position and your legs used to pedalling for long periods of time.

Without at least one long ride of a week - you will be in a world of pain. I probably would give the running a go at lunchtimes, better than sitting on your butt - but you need to find the time to get the bike miles in. If not - I'd postpone rather than being humiliated early on.

I take my hat off to Blackhelmet - I know I cant do long distance rides without training for them.

ut_och_cykla

Regarding CV fitness - the V stands for vascular - ie blood vessels.

Whilst running might well help train the big end of the system (heart lungs mind) the fine end - capillaries in muscles etc will develop for running if you run and cycling if you cycle - not to mention the neural training of different exercises.

Most of the power in running and cycling comes from the quads, but at different contraction speeds and patterns of use and naturally all the other secondary muscle use is even more specific.

So my take is yes running will help to a degree but this effect will be less and less as you cycle more. ie a cyclist of many years is unlikely to be helped by running. A person looking for general fitness/weight loss etc will be helped a little by running.

And doing anything instead of sitting on the sofa is better than nothing. If you can't cycle due to lack of time/poor weather, then run - varied pace and try to get out at least once a week for a longer bike ride. Once the light evenings are here phase out the running and get on ya bike!

alzeb

and as a break from cycling on rest days.............?

Mike Willcox

ut_och_cykla wrote:

Regarding CV fitness - the V stands for vascular - ie blood vessels.

Whilst running might well help train the big end of the system (heart lungs mind) the fine end - capillaries in muscles etc will develop for running if you run and cycling if you cycle - not to mention the neural training of different exercises.

Most of the power in running and cycling comes from the quads, but at different contraction speeds and patterns of use and naturally all the other secondary muscle use is even more specific.

All makes perfect sense, as we know that a runner cannot translate their CV fittness into riding a bike. There are though some non bike CV training routines which tend to mirror the leg movements involved with pedalling, namely the pushing down on the pedals. I think that running up steps or a hill falls into that category.

Matchstick Man

Mike Willcox wrote:

[we know that a runner cannot translate their CV fittness into riding a bike. .

jpembroke wrote:

and then there's Rob Jebb

http://www.cyclingnews.com/cross.php?id ... jebb_jan08

so he's the SkyRunning World Champion then represents GB at the World Cyclo-Cross champs?

We also have plenty of ex-runners in our club who are now doing very well in TT's and RR's thanks.

Matchstick Man

Mike Willcox wrote:

[ On the other hand there are those who say that it's ALL about CV fitness and you don't need strength.

Mike Willcox wrote:

So marathon runners can run better than someone who might be able to out bench press them because of their better CV fitness. NO REALLY? Who would have thought?

Thanks for proving (in your own words) that strength is NOT a limiting factor in endurance sport Mike. Ric Stern couldn't have put it any better if he'd tried

Mike Willcox

Matchstick Man

Worlds strongest man v Marathon Runner in a running race. So I've proved in my own words that strength is NOT a limiting factor by ridiculing your pathetic suggestion that anyone would question that the marathon runner would be a better runner. PLEASE!!!

So you happen to know of a runner who can ride a bike quite well. That proves it then. All runners can turn it on when riding a bike (without any bike training?).

Specfic strength and specific CV fitness obtained by riding a bike to me are one and the same. You either believe that specific strength training is pertinent to riding a bike fast or you don't but if you put words into my mouth then it will be vigorously challenged every time. And as for saying that I don't quite get this particluar argument ; well we certainly nailed that one didn't we?.