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Tour Down Under headbutt

Jeff JonesJeff Jones Posts: 1,865 Editor
edited February 2008 in Pro race
Jeff Jones

Product manager, Sports

Should Rigotto have been disqualifed? 0 votes

Yes, and he was lucky to not to be jailed for assault
0% 0 votes
No way. What was the commissaire smoking?
0% 0 votes

Posts

  • Dave_1Dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    very hard to say....how else can he keep balance if someone closes in..possibly legit??
  • redddraggonredddraggon Posts: 10,862
    It's hard to see from that clip. Could he have been trying to look behind him? It seems a wierd thing to - you've got nearly as much risk as the other guy to come off haven't you?
    I like bikes...

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  • Definitely intentional. 1:30 into the first vid (Stage 4 crash and sprint finish). Slo mo at 2:00

    http://video.sbs.com.au/player/news/index.php?chid=12&tabid=17
  • Mog UkMog Uk Posts: 964
    Serious bike skills if it is intentional, not sure I could headbutt something, whilst sprinting and manage to stay on my bike.....

    I'm still thinking he was looking behind, why would you headbutt someone infront of cameras/crowds, you just wouldn't... would you ?
  • Dave_1Dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    It would be good to see an overhead cam, as the commissaire says the guy drew level and headbutted when Hayman hadn't come off his line. If that's the case then Hayman's been assaulted...should be dealt with in the same way as assault on the football field?
  • drenkromdrenkrom Posts: 1,062
    Absolutely intentional. No question at all. Usually, when you look back, well... you look backwards, which was not the case at all. What was behind the gesture eludes me completely, but there is not even the slightest doubt in my mind this was intentional. and it wasn't the result of mindless lane changing, it was a distinct gesture directed at a particular rider. Getting thrown off the race is getting off easy, I think. Most professional sports would tag on a suspension for this kind of gesture.
  • He did come across quite a bit to come into contact with Hayman. For me, it's the slo mo shot where you see the follow through of a push. If it were an accidental bump whilst looking behind, you wouldn't have that much force.

    Anyone know the motive though?
  • Dave_1Dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    time for sprinters lines painted down the last 200m I think...just so cameras can be used to disqualify the rider and show the dangerous riders up time and again
  • BronzieBronzie Posts: 4,927
    Definitely intentional. 1:30 into the first vid (Stage 4 crash and sprint finish). Slo mo at 2:00

    http://video.sbs.com.au/player/news/index.php?chid=12&tabid=17
    Agree 100%. The overhead shot is really damning.

    Respect to Rigotto for his bike handling skills, but he should be banned for pulling a stunt like that.
  • Dave_1Dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    edited January 2008
    Actually......the rabo rider was veering to the left after leading out...have a look at 2min 6 seconds-2 mins 8secs ..., drifting to the left after his lead out , Rabo was drifting. Therefore not blamless...and the Milram guy almost falls off on the other side, he swerves left almost losing balance and then goes right ,going the other way...it looks less his fault from above...the headbutt is more a survival instinct I think...to keep balance...definitely looks intentional...but Rabo should hold his line when drifting back after leading out
  • metroidmetroid Posts: 255
    Anyone know the motive though?
    I can only speak as a rider (who's raced with some of these guys), but my take was it was a very standard bit of jostling that this guy totally overcooked in the heat of the moment. It's not unusual at all (or even wrong) to get pushing with your head or shoulders. But this just goes to show that especially at the end of a race when you're tired it's dangerous and even the pros can really screw up. So for sure it was intentional, but that doesn't mean it was malicious.
  • Dave_1Dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    metroid wrote:
    Anyone know the motive though?
    I can only speak as a rider (who's raced with some of these guys), but my take was it was a very standard bit of jostling that this guy totally overcooked in the heat of the moment. It's not unusual at all (or even wrong) to get pushing with your head or shoulders. But this just goes to show that especially at the end of a race when you're tired it's dangerous and even the pros can really screw up. So for sure it was intentional, but that doesn't mean it was malicious.

    I agree...Rabo drifted left, the other dude was trying to avoid falling off...it looked intentionally harmful but is not. He shouldn't have been disqualified IMO..having had more time to consider the overhead shot...the front on shot is not reliable at all for making a judgement on intent to harm
  • metroidmetroid Posts: 255
    Dave_1 wrote:
    drifting to the left after his lead out , Rabo was drifting. Therefore not blamless...and the Milram guy almost falls off on the other side,
    Agree but disagree . :wink: Rabo was drifting and the Milram guy tried to 'let him know' but he still wildly misjudged. There's nothing wrong with what Hayman was doing.
  • Dave_1Dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    metroid wrote:
    Dave_1 wrote:
    drifting to the left after his lead out , Rabo was drifting. Therefore not blamless...and the Milram guy almost falls off on the other side,
    Agree but disagree . :wink: Rabo was drifting and the Milram guy tried to 'let him know' but he still wildly misjudged. There's nothing wrong with what Hayman was doing.

    Hayman could have stayed on a staright line though , no? A little dangerous to sit up at that speed with riders behind coming at a hell of a pace with heads down...it's a racing incident...
  • afx237viafx237vi Posts: 12,630
    Pretty incredible. To me, it looked deliberate. Hayman sat up, but Rigotto was already on his way past and could have just kept going... he deliberately stuck his head out and pushed into Hayman's arm. Crazy.
  • Dave_1Dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    afx237vi wrote:
    Pretty incredible. To me, it looked deliberate. Hayman sat up, but Rigotto was already on his way past and could have just kept going... he deliberately stuck his head out and pushed into Hayman's arm. Crazy.

    Quite similar to Mcewan and Ogrady at TDF 06...definitely dodgy looking, but the Rabo rider is guilty of sitting up drifting to the left quite drastically...surely rider dropping bike should hold their line for safety of others approaching at speed...?
  • afx237viafx237vi Posts: 12,630
    Sure, Hayman was drifting to the left, so he's not totally blameless. But he wasn't drifting into Rigotto - he wasn't blocking him - Rigotto had plenty of room to pass.

    Hayman screwed up Rigotto's sprint, but that doesn't give him right to headbutt him off his bike!

    I couldn't find a video of the McEwen butt on O'Grady but I can't recall it being worse than this. From memory it was much more of a "racing incident" and less calculated. The TDU one takes place with 200 metres to go so neither of them had a chance of winning anyway!

    Here's another video I found though, McEwen and Freire at Paris-Tours last year. Again, this isn't malicious, it's just rough and tumble sprinting.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPybqwcFSbc
  • drenkromdrenkrom Posts: 1,062
    How exactly do you finish your lead-out and stay in a straight line? You just slow down right in front of your leader? You jump out of the way. That move happens at least 3 times in every sprint and rarely causes a problem. Letting your temper boil, headbutting another rider, making him crash and break a collarbone happens a lot less often and is not a given of sprinting. As such, it should be sanctioned, whatever mitigating circumstances Rigotto can come up with. Has he even contested the decision?
  • deejaydeejay Posts: 3,138
    Dave_1 wrote:
    time for sprinters lines painted down the last 200m I think...just so cameras can be used to disqualify the rider and show the dangerous riders up time and again
    What utter rubish......paint the lines fine...but where is the man with the starting pistol to signal the start of the sprint.
    My take on this was, it was an Accident (in a split second) as he tried to swerve and avoid Hayman who just lost control from the bump.
    On the track this happens all the time as riders bounce off one another (intended shoulders) but here it appears to me that Hayman had relaxed as the other rider came through fast.
    I understand from one report that they shook hands without problem !!!!!
    Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 1972
  • moray_gubmoray_gub Posts: 3,328
    Definately deliberate imo, the Rabo guy was drifting left but not so much that the Milram guy couldnt have passed him without incident. For me disqualification is the least of his worries given the wreckless nature of the act. Thinki he could be looking at a suspension and if so it would be well deserved.

    cheers
    MG
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • Here is a link to some video updates of the 2008 TDU including the headbutt incident - they are updating the videos after each stage http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4jraPauOkk
  • DeuceDeuce Posts: 18
    If I remember correctly at that TdF, Stuart O'Grady said one headbutt is sprinting but two is out of order. (but that directly after the finish)
    This may only have been one headbutt but it was a pretty big one.
  • I have a feeling it was a deliberate headbutt, but was never meant to do anywhere near as much damage as it did. I reckon he was probably just trying to nudge the Hayman away, but caught him on the arm, making him lose control. Still illegal, obviously!

    Reminds me of the American Velodrome crash.

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=YGnLDr6jRSI


    A deliberate contact with the other rider, but never intended to cause the incident it did. Always tricky to stand there afterwards and admit it. If nothing major had happened in either incident, I reckon the rider would have come clean.
  • hammeritehammerite Posts: 3,408
    According to the interview they showed the following day on Eurosport, it was intentional, but a bit more of a gut reaction. Rigotto was peed off and just reacted, but can't explain why and has apologised (in a letter according to his team mate).

    What I can't understand was them saying that Hayman had an operation, with plates and screws and would be back riding in 5 days! Thats one hell of a recovery!
  • deejaydeejay Posts: 3,138
    Deuce wrote:
    If I remember correctly at that TdF, Stuart O'Grady said one headbutt is sprinting but two is out of order. (but that directly after the finish)
    This may only have been one headbutt but it was a pretty big one.
    Magnus Bbackstedt came off in the stage 5 sprint of tour of Qatar and like Rigotto he was travelling faster than the rider he bumped into. In this sprint he was the one to fall.
    The next day with the commentary he laughed and said that "sprinters have their brakes in a position that cannot be used in a sprint and anyway what are helmets for".

    Therefor the conclusion is that they use their shoulders or head to attempt to keep balance and in 1 race the faster rider stays up and in another the faster rider hits the deck.
    Whatever in the speed of things there isn't much time to think and adjust and the result is another collarbone.

    .
    Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 1972
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