OT Best of luck tommorrow lads !!!

moray_gub

Heres hoping the Scots football team do the business against the Italians tommorrow, gonna go out and do a 30 cycle in the morning then jump on train into Glasgow to soak up the atmosphere in the pubs cant get a ticket despite being at all home games so far :-(

cheers
MG

popette

yes good luck to the scots. I'll be watching and cheering you on. Husband is scottish but I would cheer you on anyway, as I would all the home nations.
Would you cheer for England though? Mr P doesn't. He loves it when we lose. Git.

moray_gub

popette wrote:

yes good luck to the scots. I'll be watching and cheering you on. Husband is scottish but I would cheer you on anyway, as I would all the home nations.
Would you cheer for England though? Mr P doesn't. He loves it when we lose. Git.

Well i cant speak for my fellow countrymen but for me i dont have any problem when England win or do well in fact im quite happy to see it , maybe cheer is a bit strong though :-) The English do seem to have made a right dogs proverbials this time though.


cheers
MG

OffTheBackAdam

Oikball & Scotland? Complete indifference in this household! Here's for a European Cup-free zone in the whole UK for 2008!

pneumatic

The boy (12) and I were there. It was simply magnificent. A privilege to be part of it and I am still moved at the memory.

We had great seats, right on the half way line and half way up the stand. We never sat on them. An hour before the kick off, the whole stadium was jumping, despite the pouring rain. During the game, the noise was deafening. It was one huge passionate carnival. When we scored, the whole place went into a frenzy, people were hugging complete strangers, screaming into the rafters, leaping about. When they scored their last minute goal, we were just stunned. We didn't deserve to lose. I have never seen a Scotland team play so well in 25 years of attending Hampden Park.

Football gets stick for fan violence and ugly manners and Italy's problems in this regard are headline news once again. Well here's what happened on Saturday: Before the game, we went up to some Italians shook their hands and were wished good luck by them. We gave them a little badge with Scottish and Italian flags on it for a souvenir. When it was time for the anthems, the announcer said "Please show respect for the anthem of our visitors" - somebody behind us booed, the guy in front of me turned around and put his finger to his lips. Then we clapped and sang along to their anthem before belting ours out. After the game, the italian team applauded us, the fans.

OffthebackAdam, your closed mind does you no favours. I was proud that my son saw and felt and experienced all of that, and that he will not grow up a graceless class-ridden twit.

And by the way, I hate bigots, because they are all the same!

Garybee

Recently i've decided that i'm going to adopt the attitude of the Scotish people with this kind of thing.

So with that in mind:-



Loooooooooooosssssseeeeeeeeeers

pneumatic

Fair enough, garybee, I have to confess to celebrating a few penalty shoot-outs in my time.

I hope your luck holds for Wednesday; there can't be much left in the tin!

heavymental

Unlucky for the Scots. I was hoping they'd manage to do it as they've had some good results trying to get there. As it turns out it looks like England are going to go through when they don't really desrve to. I say that but Wednesdays game is going to be the usual story. A painful backs to the wall exhibition of nervous football. We'll maybe scramble a draw but I bet we make hard work of it. We'll then go to Euro 08 off the back of a shaky qualifying campaign and go out to the first quality side we meet :roll:

pedylan

I don't think England are deserving of failure - not even as a result of the attitude exemplified by Garybee.

But if they were desrving of failure it would be because of the attitude of the press and of some supporters to defeat. After the Russia game the outpourings and accusations against McClaren and his players was disgraceful. Such factions don't deserve to have a successful team to support.

Contrast that with the coverage and attitude to Scotland's defeat on Saturday.

So garybee it seems the chip on the shoulder is well and truly transferred south of the border.

pneumatic

When I was at school in England, I was always taught that "England Expects".

Maybe that is the problem, sometimes?

spen666

pneumatic wrote:

The boy (12) and I were there. It was simply magnificent. A privilege to be part of it and I am still moved at the memory.

...

Isn't this part of Scotland's ( and to an extent Briatain's) problem

The glorification of failure

Magnificent?
a privilege?
moved at the memory?



No what happened was that Scotland failed to qualify for the competition.

Brave or not, it was a failure.


I'm damn sure that Brazil or Argentina or Italy etc would not be going on about how brave they were if they had failed to qualify.


if sights are set low, then achievement will be low.




This is not an anti-scottish rant, but a comment on the british glorification of failure

pneumatic

Yup, you could have a point there. We are pretty expert at consoling ourselves.

Mike Willcox

spen666 wrote:

pneumatic wrote:

The boy (12) and I were there. It was simply magnificent. A privilege to be part of it and I am still moved at the memory.

...

Isn't this part of Scotland's ( and to an extent Briatain's) problem

The glorification of failure

Magnificent?
a privilege?
moved at the memory?



No what happened was that Scotland failed to qualify for the competition.

Brave or not, it was a failure.


I'm damn sure that Brazil or Argentina or Italy etc would not be going on about how brave they were if they had failed to qualify.

if sights are set low, then achievement will be low.




This is not an anti-scottish rant, but a comment on the british glorification of failure

Hi Spen. I haven't crossed swords with you a while. I guess the other forums are a bit too tame for you.

As Brazil, Italy and Argentina have won the world cup a few times then there is just reason for them to have an expectation of winning. Scotland qualify for naff all and because of their poor record don't get seeded in the qualifying groups. That makes it much harder for them to qualify.

In their case I think it can be justified as a glorious failure if for no other reason that it has given them hope for the future plus a better world ranking which should give them an easier quailfying group in the next world cup.

Garybee

pedylan wrote:

I don't think England are deserving of failure - not even as a result of the attitude exemplified by Garybee.

But if they were desrving of failure it would be because of the attitude of the press and of some supporters to defeat. After the Russia game the outpourings and accusations against McClaren and his players was disgraceful. Such factions don't deserve to have a successful team to support.

Contrast that with the coverage and attitude to Scotland's defeat on Saturday.

So garybee it seems the chip on the shoulder is well and truly transferred south of the border.

No chip due to no interest in football. I was jokingly mocking the usual Scottish glee displayed when England loses something.

spasypaddy

i have an interest in football, a huge interest and i will not lie. I enjoyed watching Scotland lose. The scottish goal was offside and the italians should of been 2-0 up anyway. Ok so they wasted an hour and cheated their way through the game but what did you expect from the italians!?

spen666

Mike Willcox wrote:

... Scotland qualify for naff all and because of their poor record don't get seeded in the qualifying groups. That makes it much harder for them to qualify.

In their case I think it can be justified as a glorious failure if for no other reason that it has given them hope for the future plus a better world ranking which should give them an easier quailfying group in the next world cup.

failure is still failure

Scotland did not qualify. They may have been unlucky, they may have not been good enough. That is not at issue


The fact is they failed and we should not be celebrating failure. [ Note, I am not condeming the players/ management or SFA] Celebrating failure is to encourage people to think failure is a satisfactory result.

This being the case it will not encourage people to aim to succeeed when they will be celebrated for failing

pneumatic

spen666 wrote:

failure is still failure

it will not encourage people to aim to succeeed when they will be celebrated for failing

Well, yes, but...

Does that make Joe Simpson wrong to have written Touching the Void? Or Tom Hanks misguided for agreeing to appear in Apollo 13?

I don't remember saying at the end of those two gripping movies "Oh that was crap, they never even got to the summit/moon!"

Human endeavour is most thrilling and entertaining when human beings are up against it. That was what we gloried in on Saturday. Logic says we didn't have a prayer against the world champions and in the end we didn't make it. But it was one hell of a good attempt and you can't beat that for live entertainment.

IMO, of course!

pedylan

spen666 wrote:

failure is still failure


The fact is they failed and we should not be celebrating failure.

You have been harping on in several posts about celebrating failure. Who's celebrating failure? Scotland competed well in a group with the current world champions and runners up. Having beaten France twice we were in position where we could have qualified on merit. In a game where good and bad luck went both ways we narrowly lost. What is being celebrated is the endeavour and success to have got this far, NOT the fact that we failed to qualify.

Check out the Olympic Ideal for a more eloquent explanation of this concept.

if England don't qualify then this will be celebrated (sic) in the customary fashion - ie baying for McClaren's head to be marched around London on the end of a stick.

spen666

pedylan wrote:

spen666 wrote:

failure is still failure


The fact is they failed and we should not be celebrating failure.

You have been harping on in several posts about celebrating failure. Who's celebrating failure? Scotland competed well in a group with the current world champions and runners up. Having beaten France twice we were in position where we could have qualified on merit. In a game where good and bad luck went both ways we narrowly lost. What is being celebrated is the endeavour and success to have got this far, NOT the fact that we failed to qualify.

Check out the Olympic Ideal for a more eloquent explanation of this concept.

if England don't qualify then this will be celebrated (sic) in the customary fashion - ie baying for McClaren's head to be marched around London on the end of a stick.

That is the point- there is no success in failing.

Whether Scotland finished 3rd or bottom without a point, they failed. They were not good enough. There is nothing to celebrate in not being good enough.


This is not anti scotland stuff. We in England and in Britain as a whole do it- eg Rugby world cup- all the media going on about how wonderful England were- no they weren't - they failed.

There is a world of difference between not celebrating failure and condemning the team ( or whatever).

do we say well done to the Tories at the last election- they canvassed well. Do we celebrate coming second?

lateralus

spen666 wrote:

This is not anti scotland stuff. We in England and in Britain as a whole do it- eg Rugby world cup- all the media going on about how wonderful England were- no they weren't - they failed.

However, there are degrees of failure. To take your rugby example, while England may not have won the world cup, as a New Zealand supporter I found their "failure" (given their limitations as a side and their woeful form in the early part of the tournament) far more laudable than the failure of the All Blacks, who should have done an awful lot more with the resources they had.

I can applaud "failure" when it's clear someone has given their best and exceeded expectations. Not, as with the England football team, when it looks, much of the time, like they just can't be bothered.

heavymental

Most people have reasonably realistic expectations of what a team can achieve. No one expected Scotland to have a prayer against France and Italy so to get the results they did was beyond expectations. Nobody expected the England rugby team to get to the final so to so was beyond expectations. Its not a bad thing to be proud of a teams performance even if they haven't got a shiny cup to show for their efforts. In 2003 most people realistically expected England to win the RWC, if they had failed there would have been great dissapointment. This time round we didn't expect them to get anywhere so when they failed the nation shrugged its shoulders and congratulated them on a sterling effort all the same.

This is why England football fans are so let down by poor performances. Because we have the players to acheive so much more.

Of course, unexpected success and failure is what makes sport so interesting. The AB's failing to grasp what they thought was rightfully theirs, Greece winning the European Cup, Ivanisevic winning Wimbledon on a wildcard entry etcetc.

There's nothing wrong with cheering on a team or player who fails after giving it everything and coming up short. The problem lies in patting teams/players on the back who don't look as though they have really tried and I don't think we do that very often. We certainly don't do it with the football team, we give them no end of sht about having no passion. Personally this is why I'm happy to cheer on the 'ultimate underachiever' Tim Henman. He's always been a consumate professional, worked very hard and achieved lots in the game. Just because he didn't quite have what it takes to be amazing doesn't mean we should chew his ars about it.

It would be nice if all our national teams were world champs but hey ho, if we were only ever happy when celebrating success we'd be quite miserable.

wildmoustache

Heavymental wrote:

This is why England football fans are so let down by poor performances. Because we have the players to acheive so much more.
.

agree with a lot of the rest of your post heavymental, but this IMO is complete bollox. ... it's a widely held view that england have great players but a poor team ... what's the evidence that they have great players. ..?

could it be their poor touch? scrappy play? lack of control? negative, nervous play? on their day, rooney and gerrard are pretty good players - perhaps not making it into a world XI, but almost certainly on the subs bench.

but the rest of england team really really are poor. john terry for example, continual lapses of concentration (he has these for chelsea too but it doesn't matter so much when the opposition is being steamrolled) ... or "frank have ball must shoot lampard" ... beckham ... etc.

imagine for a minute david beckham lifting the Euru 08 cup and handing it paul robinson? Hard isn't it?

What pees me off is that the media have built these guys up and tricked the dumbo british public (or many of them at least) into believing these are great players. They aint. That's why their not winning (duh!). It's a dog and lampost ... Sky want us to believe they're great, the red tops want us to believe their great etc. etc. shame the british public can't recognise a snout in the trough when the see one ...

el_presidente

pneumatic wrote:

spen666 wrote:

failure is still failure

it will not encourage people to aim to succeeed when they will be celebrated for failing

Well, yes, but...

Does that make Joe Simpson wrong to have written Touching the Void? Or Tom Hanks misguided for agreeing to appear in Apollo 13?

I don't remember saying at the end of those two gripping movies "Oh that was crap, they never even got to the summit/moon!"
!

Joe Simpson did get to the summit (Siula Grande IIRC) , he had his accident on the descent

pneumatic

el_presidente wrote:

Joe Simpson did get to the summit (Siula Grande IIRC) , he had his accident on the descent

oops! so he did!

A bit like Steve Morrow scoring the winning goal for Arsenal in the 93 League Cup final and then breaking his arm falling off Tony Adams in the post match celebrations. . .

Only a bit more serious!

heavymental

Well I dunno, maybe you're right actually. I hadn't really thought of it like that. Hmmm.....then again I think we genuinely do have good players. Gareth Barry, Gerrard, Joe Cole, Sean Wright Phillips should be a quality midfield unit and Rooney and Crouch should be able to make a few goals go in. Rio, Terry, Cole and Richards should be a decent back 4 too. Calamity James or Robinson in goal shouldn't have alot to do really. Trouble is we always seem to lack confidence and play as though we're scared. I genuinely believe if we had the right coach we'd have a team prepared to go out and play fast and furious and win matches but we don't seem to have any belief. At that point skills and ability disappear as with any athlete who isn't confident. With the England rugby team at their best the question wasn't if they were going to win but how. They always knew they would win even with their backs to the wall. The England football team has no such confidence. When they do play with confidence they look good as they have done in so many first halves in the last few years but that always seem to evaporate in the second half. They resort to defending on the 6 yard line and get camped in their own half.

Look at Greece when they won the Euros. No players really stood out but they were the epitomy of a team. They played together, put everything into it and they didn't need magic and flair to win games. If England could have that team quality and add to it the individual skills of players like Rooney and Joe cole we'd be half decent.

Watch Wednesdays game. We'll have a decent first half, maybe grab a goal, look like a capable team but in the second half we'll be hanging on for dear life.

spen666

lateralus wrote:

spen666 wrote:

This is not anti scotland stuff. We in England and in Britain as a whole do it- eg Rugby world cup- all the media going on about how wonderful England were- no they weren't - they failed.

However, there are degrees of failure. ....

Failure is failure

Whether you lose say a cup final 100-0 or to a disputed penaly in the last minute of extra time, its still failure and you have lost

heavymental

Oh dear...we're 2-0 down!

popette

Heavymental wrote:

Oh dear...we're 2-0 down!

Oh dear indeed.

gavintc

spen666 wrote:

lateralus wrote:

spen666 wrote:

This is not anti scotland stuff. We in England and in Britain as a whole do it- eg Rugby world cup- all the media going on about how wonderful England were- no they weren't - they failed.

However, there are degrees of failure. ....

Failure is failure

Whether you lose say a cup final 100-0 or to a disputed penaly in the last minute of extra time, its still failure and you have lost

Looks we have another 'failure' on our hands.

heavymental

Well, if we lose there's no doubt it'll be a failure! Wish they'd stop talking about Andorra doing us a favour! Surely no chance of them managing a draw.

God we're sh1t!

andyp

Look on the bright side - Second Choice Steve will be out of a job soon. Let's hope the FA have the balls to appoint a decent manager next time. But I doubt they will...