Sinkewitz dished dirt on T-Mobile (06 flavour)

iainf72 · October 2007

DaveyL wrote:

T-Mobile spokesman Stefan Wagner told Cyclingnews: "The reported comments of Patrik Sinkewitz underline the need for change in cycling and the T-Mobile Team in 2006. When we assumed control of the team for the 2007 season, we made dramatic changes in management, practices and people, and implemented a strong code of conduct and an anti-doping program. These changes continue as we prepare for the 2008 season." "

Bunch of clowns. Stefan obviously also lives in fairy land.

What we he should've said was "we made changes to the team management, replacing the old with guys who'd been doping through the 90's and never admitted it. But it's ok now because they were forced into a corner and confessed which makes it all better. We also got the doctors who were administering blood transfusions in 06 to create an anti-doping program. Our code of conduct is also ace because 10% of our team have violated it this year which obviously means it's taken seriously and they were only the ones that were caught. We are modelling ourselves on Phonak and look forward to being stripped of a major title in 2008"

I can't believe people fall for this rubbish. Oh well, as Jello Biafra put it, the dumbest buy the mostest.

phil s · October 2007

Your anti-T Mobile bias is so glaring that it's also hard to take your criticism seriously

DaveyL · October 2007

He's becoming like that simon bloke over on cyclechat soapbox, who is constantly banging on about the BBC licence fee

andyp · October 2007

I think Iain's bang on personally. The T-Mobile anti-doping policy is nothing but a PR sham. They can talk all they like about their attitude to doping but talk is cheap. It's time for concrete actions if they are serious.

phil s · October 2007

I think they're far from perfect, but I think they're trying and I think they have found themselves out of their depth on more than one occasion as circumstances have unfurled. I also think they are genuinely trying rather than just doing a PR job, but they need to do better. I for one wish them luck and will not sneer at their misfortune until I'm proved wrong.

LangerDan · October 2007

phil s wrote:

I think they're far from perfect, but I think they're trying and I think they have found themselves out of their depth on more than one occasion as circumstances have unfurled. I also think they are genuinely trying rather than just doing a PR job, but they need to do better. I for one wish them luck and will not sneer at their misfortune until I'm proved wrong.

That is an acceptable position for Agritubel or Skil-Shimano. What is effectively the worlds biggest pro-squad, (particularly when the womens team is included) shouldn't be out of their depth. Thats not unfortunate - that is bad management.

iainf72 · October 2007

phil s wrote:

I think they're far from perfect, but I think they're trying and I think they have found themselves out of their depth on more than one occasion as circumstances have unfurled. I also think they are genuinely trying rather than just doing a PR job, but they need to do better. I for one wish them luck and will not sneer at their misfortune until I'm proved wrong.

To quote the great Yoda -

Try not. Do Or do not. There is no Try.

Bob might be a nice guy - His daughter said he was in her letter to cyclingnews, but he's not doing anything. There is a veil of talk about anti-doping etc, but haven't we learnt over the last few year what hollow words about doping get us?

I initially expressed my reservations about this team a year ago and I've not been wrong.

Jeff Jones · October 2007

The interview with Lothar Heinrich was interesting, given what has subsequently come out.

Changing the top management is all very well and Bob Stapleton seems genuine about wanting to clean things up. As for Aldag and Zabel, who confessed, at least that's out in the open. It depends if they're repentant I guess ;-)

But it's still the riders, who are the ones benefiting most from doping, who have to want to change. Finding good riders who have a strong anti-doping ethic and are not under contract is not easy. T-Mobile did well to hire Wiggins, for example.

But if what Sinkewitz says is true about the '06 Tour, there are a number of riders still on the team that need to be shown the door. That may happen in the coming months. Either that or T-Mobile will get fed up and pull out, a la Phonak, and I wouldn't blame them if they did.

G man · October 2007

Iain, you keep going on about T mobile not taking doping seriously and being all talk. I'd be interested to know what more you think they could do to combat doping? Do you want T mobile to fail, and if so why? Surely, if T mobile pull their sponsorship, and teams like Astana get a place on the tour, cycling will be a laughing stock. Do you also direct the same venom to Slipstream for their anti doping stance? Or is it that you simply don't like magenta? Go on Bradley!
A Bradley Wiggins fan

andyp · October 2007

G man wrote:

Iain, you keep going on about T mobile not taking doping seriously and being all talk. I'd be interested to know what more you think they could do to combat doping? Do you want T mobile to fail, and if so why? Surely, if T mobile pull their sponsorship, and teams like Astana get a place on the tour, cycling will be a laughing stock. Do you also direct the same venom to Slipstream for their anti doping stance? Or is it that you simply don't like magenta? Go on Bradley!
A Bradley Wiggins fan

I'll let Iain answer for himself.

However, T-Mobile have made a lot of PR noise about their stance on doping without taking any real concrete actions to do anything about it. During this season three of their riders have either tested positive or been sacked for suspected doping. The current team management was then forced to confess to doping in the past only because the German media scented blood and forced them into it. Part of this investigation turned up the fact that the medical support staff chosen by T-Mobile to monitor their riders were the very same medical support team that implemented a systematic doping regime in the past. It is no surprise, therefore, that some of us find their rhetoric on doping somewhat hollow.

Compare T-Mobile with CSC who, because of pressure from their sponsor, put a credible monitoring system in place to ensure none of their riders were doping. They've continued to win races but haven't made a big fuss of the fact that they've done it clean.

If I was a senior executive at T-Mobile I'd be asking questions of the management of the team and making damn sure that an independently run monitoring program was in place with someone credible, and Dr Werner Franke's name comes to mind, running it.

My stance in Astana is straightforward - they've clearly been a dirty team this season and have brought in a new management structure that doesn't inspire confidence. They've claimed they are going to implement the same scheme as CSC but I've yet to see any evidence that suggests this is any different from the PR T-Mobile have put out. I'll reserve judgement on this but hope that they, like all teams should do now in my opinion, put effective monitoring programs in place to restore the credibility of the sport.

iainf72 · October 2007

G man wrote:

Iain, you keep going on about T mobile not taking doping seriously and being all talk. I'd be interested to know what more you think they could do to combat doping? Do you want T mobile to fail, and if so why? Surely, if T mobile pull their sponsorship, and teams like Astana get a place on the tour, cycling will be a laughing stock. Do you also direct the same venom to Slipstream for their anti doping stance? Or is it that you simply don't like magenta? Go on Bradley!
A Bradley Wiggins fan

Slipstream have a credible looking program.

And that's what T-Mobile need to do for a start - Their current program is cannot be taken seriously. Do you believe that Sinkewitz only used testosterone once this season? No, probably not, but it took 6 months for him to be found out and that was basically poor luck. Ditto for our Italian friend and his slimming products - Did he pop his first pill in the Tour of Germany and get caught? No.

There program was also designed by someone who was shooting up riders with blood last year - What's wrong with that picture? As Andy points out, they should be banging down Werner Franke's door.

This is a team that in 2007 kept Honchar onboard (IMO, so they could bin him for PR at some point), 3 riders who used an infamous Italian prepatore for their training programs etc etc. Also they shoved a youngster in front of the world for that stupid anti-doping charter nonsense.

Look at their hires for 2008 - Some apparantly very clean people combined with some people from questionable teams. Is that some kind of cleanliness offset?

What would be more of a laughing stock - Astana at the Tour or T-Mobile generating another positive at the Tour?

I don't wish them harm but they need to stop treating us like fools.

[/i]

G man · October 2007

I'm sorry Andy and Iain, I completely disagree with you that T mobile should keep quiet about their anti doping programme. Any team who believes in their programme should be banging on about it all the time so that other teams take notice before their's nothing left of this sport. Why aren't CSC shouting about their programme from the rooftops, if they believe in it? Surely if more teams had a programme like their's then they would win even more races? The riders have to take responsibility as well. Any clean rider should bang on about it that they're clean until they're blue in the face. Other riders need to believe that they can do it clean. They should look at Le Mond (who I think, most people agree was probably clean) and believe that they can do it too. The blood transfusions have to be stopped. It's only a matter of time before someone dies from a transfusion reaction from receiving the wrong bag of blood. Landis was one of my heroes, but he has cheated me out of all the elation I felt when he won the tour. I feel sorry for the cheats that continue to lie and protest their innocence, rather than be men and admit they were wrong, and maybe try and do something good for the sport to make amends. Sorry for the rant, but I'm just tired of it all now. It was one of my dreams to watch the Tour live on Alpe d'Huez one day, but the way I feel now I can't be bothered.
Still a Bradley Wiggins fan

N.B. I do enjoy reading your posts Andy and Iain, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this one

andyp · October 2007

G man wrote:

I'm sorry Andy and Iain, I completely disagree with you that T mobile should keep quiet about their anti doping programme.

But they haven't got an anti-doping programme - it's just PR around some part baked ideas! If they did have one then I'd agree. [/img]

skavanagh.bikeradar · October 2007

For a long time this year I couldn't agree with Iain on T-Mobile, but the weight of evidence that they cannot be taken seriously has been slowly accumulating. Quite rightly Iain and others have criticized the disparity between their PR and the reality of their internal testing programme - you cannot expect to be taken seriously if your programme was designed by doctors that the previous year administered your doping program. The two are not compatible. Now they've got to deal with evidence that in 2006 several riders that are still with the team were perhaps involved in a team doping programme, one that several other T-Mobile staff were also involved in.

Initially I applauded their stance, but increasingly I'd like to see some real evidence that that faith was based on something tangible. CSC supply their internal results via the internet to the UCI. It is designed by the biggest critic of their owner/director, who is himself an admitted cheat. If T-Mobile did something like that, then that'd be a different ball game. Hats off to them for trying, but I'd like greater clarity, more transparency and real evidence of their programme. I'd like to see them lead the way and further isolate the Astana's of this world, not create a model that Astana can hijack and claim 'we are a new team, not like last years Astana'. Simply saying something isn't enough, you've got to demonstrate in concrete terms what it is that you claim.

We, the fans, have been lied to for a long time and since 1998 in a very cynical way. We are not idiots and can no longer be treated as such.

iainf72 · October 2007

G man wrote:

I'm sorry Andy and Iain, I completely disagree with you that T mobile should keep quiet about their anti doping programme. Any team who believes in their programme should be banging on about it all the time so that other teams take notice before their's nothing left of this sport. Why aren't CSC shouting about their programme from the rooftops, if they believe in it?

They publish the data for the program so you can take a look.

http://www.team-csc.com/upload/MidYear.pdf

Don't think I've ever seen any T-Mobile numbers.

You're obviously a fan and want to believe the team, but take a cold hard look at the facts and you will see they should be doing a lot more to make themselves believable.

DaveyL · October 2007

Not a lot of data there.

iainf72 · October 2007

DaveyL wrote:

Not a lot of data there.

The data for each rider goes to the UCI. Clearly privacy is an issue and despite what people seem to believe stuff like this shouldn't be a public record.

DaveyL · October 2007

I understand that Dr Damsgaard probably can't be more specific, but I can't help but feel that if T-Mobile *did* publish such vague data, they would be subject to a bit more flaming than CSC are getting...

However I like that they have included a blood profile of an athlete who tested positive for EPO - I wonder what the graph would look like for a micro-doser.

And which one is Cancellara? I would go for the yellow line :-)

dave_1 · October 2007

I think Slipstream is the team I most trust-surely T mobile and Astana should set up monitoring that is independent of the team. As for Bruyneel. he's needed like a hole in the head. He raced on a team with an organised team wide doping system-he should not be in the sport, nor should anyone from the 1990s management as they are a disgrace. Festina 98, Operation Puerto...this year of constant reminders the rider have not learned-fire the management, the cancer they are in this sport

calvjones · October 2007

Dave_1 wrote:

I think Slipstream is the team I most trust-surely T mobile and Astana should set up monitoring that is independent of the team. As for Bruyneel. he's needed like a hole in the head. He raced on a team with an organised team wide doping system-he should not be in the sport, nor should anyone from the 1990s management as they are a disgrace. Festina 98, Operation Puerto...this year of constant reminders the rider have not learned-fire the management, the cancer they are in this sport

Just out of interest, is this the same Dave_1 who used to contribute to the C+ Race board from Hong Kong(?)

If so, 2006 and 2007 have been really bad years for you as far as faith in cycling goes

top_bhoy · October 2007

Dave_1 wrote:

I think Slipstream is the team I most trust-surely T mobile and Astana should set up monitoring that is independent of the team. As for Bruyneel. he's needed like a hole in the head. He raced on a team with an organised team wide doping system-he should not be in the sport, nor should anyone from the 1990s management as they are a disgrace. Festina 98, Operation Puerto...this year of constant reminders the rider have not learned-fire the management, the cancer they are in this sport

What forms that opinion on 'trusting Slipstream the most'? I'd firstly like to see how Slipstream perform under the pressure of having to be successful in the big european races and justify their big budgets before lauding them with plaudits.Sadly, even though there may be teams out there who are clean, I'm cycnical of the lot of them. I find it difficult to comprehend that teams will continue to race at a competitive disavantage by being clean.

Kléber · October 2007

I think you can credit the Slipstream team as being clean. Few teams are outspoken in condeming doping. When was the last time you heard Lampre or Quick-Step condemning cheating and doping? Expect a few Slipstream riders to visit the ditch after "accidental" flicks from irked riders.

But what if their riders turn to doping to recover from injury? Nothing's certain, the point is to reward teams that try hard. And for clean teams, look at some of the French squads, even Cofidis has been turned around, but this can't stop lone cheats like Moreni.

dave_1 · October 2007

calvjones wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

I think Slipstream is the team I most trust-surely T mobile and Astana should set up monitoring that is independent of the team. As for Bruyneel. he's needed like a hole in the head. He raced on a team with an organised team wide doping system-he should not be in the sport, nor should anyone from the 1990s management as they are a disgrace. Festina 98, Operation Puerto...this year of constant reminders the rider have not learned-fire the management, the cancer they are in this sport

Just out of interest, is this the same Dave_1 who used to contribute to the C+ Race board from Hong Kong(?)

If so, 2006 and 2007 have been really bad years for you as far as faith in cycling goes

Hi Calv
Yes. it's me, dave_1 ex Hong Kong...but soon to be based back in the far east. What a lousy year it has been for cycling fans....can't even name a grand tour winner from 2005 onward I'd believe in...that's sad .

calvjones · October 2007

Dave_1 wrote:

calvjones wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

I think Slipstream is the team I most trust-surely T mobile and Astana should set up monitoring that is independent of the team. As for Bruyneel. he's needed like a hole in the head. He raced on a team with an organised team wide doping system-he should not be in the sport, nor should anyone from the 1990s management as they are a disgrace. Festina 98, Operation Puerto...this year of constant reminders the rider have not learned-fire the management, the cancer they are in this sport

Just out of interest, is this the same Dave_1 who used to contribute to the C+ Race board from Hong Kong(?)

If so, 2006 and 2007 have been really bad years for you as far as faith in cycling goes

Hi Calv
Yes. it's me, dave_1 ex Hong Kong...but soon to be based back in the far east. What a lousy year it has been for cycling fans....can't even name a grand tour winner from 2005 onward I'd believe in...that's sad .

For somebody as well-versed in GT history as you that's more than sad

drenkrom · October 2007

The T-Mobile and CSC programs we always compare seem to be based on two separate ideas. The T-Mobile program is definitely a PR program, something they can sell themselves with. The CSC program seems more geared towards protecting the sponsors' interests, without being the calling card of the team. In that respect, I like the CSC one better. It's there to come up with facts if there is an allegation against a rider, but the racing is what it's all about. T-Mobile seems geared more towards showing they're clean than towards targetting races.

Slipstream hit the center ground, which is the sweet spot. They understand that racing proactively and with panache, while demonstrating you're clean, can bring in as much eyeball-time as winning races. They will surely win some along the way, but the manner of racing is as important as the result. That's an attitude I find attractive.

dave_1 · October 2007

calvjones wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

calvjones wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

I think Slipstream is the team I most trust-surely T mobile and Astana should set up monitoring that is independent of the team. As for Bruyneel. he's needed like a hole in the head. He raced on a team with an organised team wide doping system-he should not be in the sport, nor should anyone from the 1990s management as they are a disgrace. Festina 98, Operation Puerto...this year of constant reminders the rider have not learned-fire the management, the cancer they are in this sport

Just out of interest, is this the same Dave_1 who used to contribute to the C+ Race board from Hong Kong(?)

If so, 2006 and 2007 have been really bad years for you as far as faith in cycling goes

Hi Calv
Yes. it's me, dave_1 ex Hong Kong...but soon to be based back in the far east. What a lousy year it has been for cycling fans....can't even name a grand tour winner from 2005 onward I'd believe in...that's sad .

For somebody as well-versed in GT history as you that's more than sad

Yeah Calv, it's a real downer o (the 06-07 seasons).
I was in London during the Tour of Britain, but didn't go to watch it, never even watched Eurosport pro tour events , am kind of burned out by it now. I did watch a great DVD of 1984 TDF, 1987 TDF yesterday...that was nice

flattythehurdler · October 2007

But they were all doped up, as opposed to just some of them being doped up like this year

squired · October 2007

If the T-Mobile system was just PR it wouldn't have caught Honchar, leading to him being fired earlier this year. Lets face it, he didn't fail any UCI tests in 2007. The management change at T-Mobile was probably just as important as the tests, while CSC introduced better testing, but with the same management.

Going forwards it is clear that race organisers are going to give priority in terms of entries to the teams that are doing, or seen to be doing, something against doping. Obviously the problem is that riders who've been doing it for a while will find it hard to stop, and even then there are some substances that will still be hard to detect I'd imagine. For example, will any of these internal tests pick up signs of growth hormone use, a substance that I constantly hear good things about (in terms of what it can do for you)?

iainf72 · October 2007

squired wrote:

If the T-Mobile system was just PR it wouldn't have caught Honchar, leading to him being fired earlier this year. Lets face it, he didn't fail any UCI tests in 2007. The management change at T-Mobile was probably just as important as the tests, while CSC introduced better testing, but with the same management.

You say tomato, I say he was caught on camera discussing doping, everyone knew he was dodgy but T-Mobile still took him. Come April, he gets fired, woo hoo, the system works.

PR 101.

drenkrom · October 2007

I'd probably use a milder blend of cynicism than Iain's but he does have a point. By saying it's PR, I don't mean they don't actually run tests and act on the results. We've seen they do with Gonchar. They still missed Stinky, who got caught in the UCI's net, which is supposed to have bigger holes than the internal system.

But beyond the technicalities, which we could discuss to exhaustion, to no avail since we don't run the programs ourselves, it's what each team does with the information "we have an internal testing regimen" that speaks volumes. That a new-ish team on the block goes forward with the "anti-doping is everything" attitude, as Slipstream is, will be seen as a revolution. That one of proven the cradles of team doping is going down the same road will invariably seen as pompous, shameless PR. The past of the teams plays a role. We'd surely have a few wry comments if Riis kept talking about the the nastiness of doping and how it's the biggest problem in cycling, wouldn't we? But this little debate overlooks the most important variable: all the teams apart from these three. That is where the valid targets of our criticisms lie.

Sinkewitz dished dirt on T-Mobile (06 flavour)

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