Kloden and Vino

pedalpower

Kloden should have been winner of this Tour by a country mile. He's the best timetrialler and the best climber (after Rasmussen perhaps). Even with his injuries he still seems ok but then we see him having to wait for Vino, who should never have been team leader in the first place, who seems more badly injured and who has already lost significant time. Its insane. Astana gave the Tour away yesterday with their tactics probably and perhaps Kloden's last chance at a Tour win. I just can't understand why he's never taken seriously. All the talk going into the race was about Vino, even after Kloeden's fantastic prologue and early season wins.

El Conejo Ingles

Vino is not a clot, may be Vino is just biding his time, knowing that the rest day may infuse him with new vigour. I'm expecting Vino to be in the vein tomorrow and gain sometime back.

Steve Austin

IF Kloden is the best timetrialler and the best climber he will win, although not pushing at the end of yesterdays stage was slightly odd.

Its not over yet, some really big stages to come, and if Kloden is as good as you thjink, he's got chances to do something

Moose11

It was a bad move by the team, they should have realised Vino was seriously suffering and let Kloden go on ahead and keep some time on the guys up front. It's far from over and Vino could and maybe will come bouncing back but Kloden could have been very high up on GC had he been allowed to ride.

Bronzie

I suspect Kloden is not feeling great...........riding with a fractured cocyx (and no doubt a fair bit of bruising) is not going to be easy for him.

Perhaps he has already decided that the overall is out of the question for him and he will ride as Vino's super domestique from now on............I hope not though. The two long TTs in the final week will suit him down to the ground and this year's Tour is made for him.

As others have said, it's not over yet. Kloden and Vino have both shown in the past the consistency that is needed to do well in a 3 week grand tour - if they can recover from their injuries, expect fireworks in the 3rd week.

Eurostar

I think the answer's very simple: Kloden's the type to obey orders, which is not unusual in German culture. And the orders will be to get Vino on the podium, come what may. Even if Vino drops down the GC the sponsors will still regard him as number one. And he could easily jump up a couple of places if there's yet another crash or one of the 'unpredictable' contenders like Valverde or Mayo has a bad day. The sponsor is effectively the Kazakh nation and its government - it's not about getting airtime for a brand - they're not in the Tour to sell railway tickets. Kloden has given a commitment to support his team leader, and he won't start behaving like a Frenchman or an Italian, pull out his earpiece and do his own thing.

By the way, on the occasions when he didn't work for Vino at T-Mobile, he wasn't putting himself first or being loyal to his mate Jan - he was just doing what his DS told him to. Vino obviously forgave him.

Ste_S

Eurostar wrote:

I think the answer's very simple: Kloden's the type to obey orders, which is not unusual in German culture

Kloden had the chance to lead T-Mobile under their new regime, but gave it up to work as a domestique for Vino at Astana. Do you think it was due to his unwilligness to lead a team or for slightly more dodgier reasons ?

TheBigOne

Vino is not a clot, may be Vino is just biding his time, knowing that the rest day may infuse him with new vigour. I'm expecting Vino to be in the vein tomorrow and gain sometime back.

Is he gonna have an oil change.... hahahahah...wink wink

digitaria

Eurostar wrote:

...he won't start behaving like a Frenchman or an Italian, pull out his earpiece and do his own thing.

Or a Dane

Astana squandered Klöden's GC standing and good stage position, in Vino's favour. Klöden has the class and the experience to win this Tour, but as Eurostar suggests, Vino's a Kazakhstani riding for a Kazakhstani team - there's an agenda here and it's not for a German to win. I think Klöden probably knows and accepts this, though he didn't look very happy at the end of the stage when someone tried to interview him.

Eurostar

Ste_S wrote:

Eurostar wrote:

Kloden had the chance to lead T-Mobile under their new regime, but gave it up to work as a domestique for Vino at Astana. Do you think it was due to his unwilligness to lead a team or for slightly more dodgier reasons ?

It's really difficult to get inside Kloden's head isn't it? I'm beginning to think that although he has the ability to win grand tours he doesn't have the confidence or the charisma to be a leader. Maybe's he's got some blood in Fuentes' freezer...but I can't picture him having the bottle to dope at this year's Tour...and his prologue time and his work at the front yesterday were so good that you can't argue that his performance has dropped off for want of pharmaceutical help! For the moment I think I've got him pegged as a superman who rides clean and doesn't like the limelight. He's not that comfortable around fans or journalists.

brad68

I can't believe it was not picked up on any of the commentary, as Vino put his arm on Kloden's back, Kloden almost shrugged him off, he was very pssed off! So he should be, although he is still not far away on GC.

TheBigOne

I still think that Kloden will win this race, with Contador in 2nd and on the of the Wheel Suckers Union in 3rd, or maybe even Kash.

Eurostar

If he wins the Kazakhs will have a big sense of humour failure - maybe even sack him?

jimmythecuckoo

Some of the riding (or not riding) yesterday certainly made the stage more interesting.

They are clearly worried about Moreau.

calvjones

jimmythecuckoo wrote:

Some of the riding (or not riding) yesterday certainly made the stage more interesting.

They are clearly worried about Moreau.

Far morew worried about Moreau than Vino or Klodi - which is weird as he can't timetrial for poo now that he can climb.

ricadus

Moreau came 4th in 2000, didn't he?

timoid.

ricadus wrote:

Moreau came 4th in 2000, didn't he?

Yep. But he's surely too old to win this thing?

I think he'll fade in the Pyrenees and his TT ability will let him down. Would love to be proved wrong though as he's the most exciting rider to watch at the moment.

Ste_S

Eurostar wrote:

If he wins the Kazakhs will have a big sense of humour failure - maybe even sack him?

I wonder if Kloden would have to work for Kash if Vino bails or drops too far down GC

GeorgeShaw

"I still think that Kloden will win this race, with Contador in 2nd and on the of the Wheel Suckers Union in 3rd, or maybe even Kash."

I'm a newbie, apart from watching the odd TdF as highlights, so do you care to name anybody in the Wheel Suckers Union? Evans comes to mind as one - he did nothing yesterday, or in last year's tour from memory.

But I thought yesterdays' stage at least had more interest than most mountain stages in recent years, which seemed to be reduced to US Postal/Discovery setting Armstrong a high tempo before releasing him up last few kms.

Eurostar

He's probably getting so much Kazakh oil money that he'll do whatever he's told! There's evidently plenty of cash to go round http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id= ... sappointed Imagine being able to afford Kloden and Savoldelli as super-domestiques. It's like Chelski all over again.

This lot won't have been cheap either http://www.team-astana.eu/e/organisation.php

TheBigOne

Wheel Suckers Union.

Evans, Valverde, Leiph.

Evans - needs someone to get inside his head and tell him he can win, but until he beleives that he is just gonna sit and plod along... and never win.

Valv - Oi Piti... LA is no longer here, you can race your own race on your own terms, so do it. You are very talented and will win this one day, so stop sucking wheels and rather than attacking in the last 500m set the race on fire.

Levi Leip - you're Captain, no you're not, yes you are, no you're not, yes you are. If i ever see you go on the attack i will run to France and kiss you. You sir are lacking balls.

These 3 guys are all wheel suckers, and until one of then decides to put his ball on the line none of them have a chance of winning.

They need to look to Mayo / Moreau / Contador for inspiration.

SteveR_100Milers

TheBigOne wrote:

Wheel Suckers Union.

Evans, Valverde, Leiph.

Evans - needs someone to get inside his head and tell him he can win, but until he beleives that he is just gonna sit and plod along... and never win.

Valv - Oi Piti... LA is no longer here, you can race your own race on your own terms, so do it. You are very talented and will win this one day, so stop sucking wheels and rather than attacking in the last 500m set the race on fire.

Levi Leip - you're Captain, no you're not, yes you are, no you're not, yes you are. If i ever see you go on the attack i will run to France and kiss you. You sir are lacking balls.

These 3 guys are all wheel suckers, and until one of then decides to put his ball on the line none of them have a chance of winning.

They need to look to Mayo / Moreau / Contador for inspiration.

So we can asume from your vitriol that your prediction for overall winner will be one of these three then? Either that or you have never raced yourself..

TheBigOne

haha...

that may have been a bit harsh, i was just trying to get across across that this year without a 'boss' it really is a case of fortune favouring the brave and these guys seem unable to take advantage of situations and go for it. Yesterday they should have jumped at the chance to put time into the Astana boys, but they didnt...
i dont think either 3 of these guys will win come Paris, as i have said on here previously i think it will come down to Kloden, Contador, Vino cutting up the top 3.

Raced... i've done a wee bit before....

Chris_Who

I thought the deal was Kloden helps vino this year and vino will help kloden next? - unlucky for vino he's so injured but he must have felt if he got to the rest day not too far down GC he still has a chance? - is he the kind who'd insist on kloden towing him with nothing to hope for at expense of team success?

aba2005

Vino and Kloden article
How about swapping it round and Kloden helping next year.

I don't think the tactics yesterday were so bad. Kloden, if he is at is best can easily make up the time on Valverde in the time trial and they've kept Vino in the race at the same time. Its not like Vino died 20km from the line!

calvjones

Chris_Who wrote:

I thought the deal was Kloden helps vino this year and vino will help kloden next? - unlucky for vino he's so injured but he must have felt if he got to the rest day not too far down GC he still has a chance? - is he the kind who'd insist on kloden towing him with nothing to hope for at expense of team success?

I think Vino's the kind who will always believe he can win it - hence his brave, entertaining but utterly futile attacks of 03/04!

ricadus

TheBigOne wrote:

Wheel Suckers Union.

Evans, Valverde, Leiph.

Evans - needs someone to get inside his head and tell him he can win, but until he beleives that he is just gonna sit and plod along... and never win.

Valv - Oi Piti... LA is no longer here, you can race your own race on your own terms, so do it. You are very talented and will win this one day, so stop sucking wheels and rather than attacking in the last 500m set the race on fire.

Levi Leip - you're Captain, no you're not, yes you are, no you're not, yes you are. If i ever see you go on the attack i will run to France and kiss you. You sir are lacking balls.

These 3 guys are all wheel suckers, and until one of then decides to put his ball on the line none of them have a chance of winning.

They need to look to Mayo / Moreau / Contador for inspiration.

I agree they have a more conservative approach than an obviously attacking style of rider like Vinokourov or Rasmussen, but last weekend was the hottest so far this year in that part of the world, with temps in the 30s, which must have affected their tactics.

aba2005

Is it just me or does Vinokourov climb better when he attacks rather than tempo riding?

pedalpower

everyone says don't right him off but i don't think there's any way Vino can win now - he's over five minutes down. He should have given Kloeden the leadership when he lost a minute the day before.
In his interview with ProCycling Kloeden specificially said he wouldn't have to wait for Vino so i'm not surprised if he's angry. Vino strikes me as a loose canon with a big ego and I begin to wonder if the trouble at T-mobile was as much due to him as to the team.
I'm not even sure Kloeden will catch Rasmussen and the others now. I don't think Rasmussen's really that bad in the ITT - if he stays on his bike. And Kloden will have spent so much energy yesterday, as will Moreau - they say there was a headwind.
Cadel Evans is a boring winger and should be thrown out for excessive wheel sucking in my opinion - we see it every time with him
Valverde will be interesting to watch because he's got the sprint to win time bonuses every day if he's up amongst the leaders - those bonuses could add up.

TheBigOne

PP,

kloden does not have to catch the others, he is already in there with the others. If you exclude the top 2 riders then there is only 1 min 21 seconds separating the next 13 riders. Kloden could get that back on ALL of the riders above him in the first TT. He may be disgruntled about losing some time yesterday but it’s not the end for him by any means.

1 Michael Rasmussen (Den) Rabobank 39.37.42
2 Linus Gerdemann (Ger) T-Mobile Team 0.43
3 Iban Mayo Diez (Spa) Saunier Duval - Prodir 2.39
4 Alejandro Valverde Belmonte (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 2.51
5 Andrey Kashechkin (Kaz) Astana 2.52
6 Cadel Evans (Aus) Predictor - Lotto 2.53
7 Christophe Moreau (Fra) AG2r Prévoyance 3.06
8 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Discovery Team 3.10
9 Frank Schleck (Lux) Team CSC 3.14
10 Denis Menchov (Rus) Rabobank 3.19
11 Carlos Sastre Candil (Spa) Team CSC 3.35
12 Andreas Klöden (Ger) Astana 3.46
13 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Discovery Team 3.53
14 Oscar Pereiro Sio (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 3.54
15 Haimar Zubeldia Agirre (Spa) Euskaltel - Euskadi 4.00

As for Rass. not being that bad at the TT, unless he has made some serious improvements (which i wont write off until we see him next week) i doubt he has a chance in hell. Sorry, if you wanna have a look, type his name into Youtube for some amusing clips…

Max Weber

I agree they have a more conservative approach than an obviously attacking style of rider like Vinokourov or Rasmussen, but last weekend was the hottest so far this year in that part of the world, with temps in the 30s, which must have affected their tactics.

I wasn't expecting mad attacks from them, but surely it wouldn't have been too adventurous for Evans and Valverde to take a couple of turns on the front with Moreau to put a bit more time into Vino/Kloden. I would've thought their teams would've encouraged them to do that over the radio.