Fatality - Greenwich Park
SJLcp
Posts: 239
I'm sorry to report a cyclist was killed in Greenwich park this evening - I arrived to see the hill cordoned off near the toilets - without going into details it looks like a cyclist going up he hill was hit by an MPV going down - the dent in the front of the car was horrific.
My thoughts go out to the cyclists family.
My thoughts go out to the cyclists family.
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Sad to hear it. I don't know the area at all, but it seems an unusual sort of collision for a cyclist to be involved in.0
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Oh my god, that's awful.
How on earth could the driver be going fast enough to kill someone going through the park? I'm really shocked.
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<font size="1"><font color="red">The biggest dumb ass on this forum</font id="red"></font id="size1"><hr noshade size="1">
<font size="1"><font color="red">The biggest dumb ass on this forum</font id="red"></font id="size1">0 -
WTF?! i know the spot very well sounds like a freak accident, i though the barriers at the top don't allow people to build up any speed to fly down the hill...sounds strange. regardless, my thoughts go out to the cyclists family.
dangerous jules.
i'm thinking of buying one of them elephants to do my washing...do they eat alot?dangerous jules.0 -
Likewise, I'm also very familiar with that spot, sounds like a very odd accident. Does anyone know any more ?0
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How the flip can a car driver decide a few seconds off his journey are worth killing someone?
It's a PARK slow the fxxx down.0 -
From the singletrack thread it "appears" that the cyclist climbing the hill was hit by a car travelling down the hill who chose that moment to overtake a slower car! This ties up with what I saw as the aftermath.
It really is sickening to think that someones dies simply because an idiot driver didn't want to drive through the park slowly - on a park road with pedestrians and kids. Given that its a 20mph zone I wonder whether they will be charged with death by dangerous driving and a 10 year sentence - somehow I doubt it.
I hope they close that road to traffic now - its always been dangerour and thats not the first cycling fatality either0 -
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by SJL</i>
From the singletrack thread it "appears" that the cyclist climbing the hill was hit by a car travelling down the hill who chose that moment to overtake a slower car! This ties up with what I saw as the aftermath. <snip><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
The singletrack thtread seems like a pile of crap to me. It is full of information quoted as fact with no evidence to back it up, together with "facts" like there is a 20mph limit in the park (it is 30).
My mum saw the aftermath around 1630. The road was already closed so the incident must have occurred before then. She said there was a casualty on a stretcher who appeared to be receiving treatment.
I passed through at about 1830. The car, a silver mini MPV, was parked on the east side of the road just down from the toilet block facing downhill. There was no evidence to suggest that this was where the car came to rest following the incident so I am not sure that any conclusions can be drawn from its position. The windscreen was damaged and there was a long dent in the roof running backwards from the top of the windscreen. The bike (looked like a road bike or fast hybrid) was in the road with the front wheel significantly buckled a few yards uphill from the car. There was a black bag on the pavement further uphill that could have been a pannier or messenger bag. The road was blocked with tape for at least 10 metres each way from the bike and some 200 square metres of the slope on the west side of the road was taped off although it was not obvious why. There was stretcher beside the road with a cover on it which could have been occupied by a body but I cannot be sure.
At the point where the bike was, a cyclist coming down the hill could easily be doing between 20 and 30 mph IME. Most cars would be doing 30-35 mph going down. Cyclists ascending generally do between 5 and 12mph IME and cars often travel between 20-30mph. The road is marginal for two opposing cars to pass alongside a cyclist. The carriageway is separated from the pavement by a cobbled gully which can easily be crossed by a cyclist or car (although I would be wary of doing so at speed). I alway ride primary in both directions to prevent any overtaking of me unless the opposing lane is clear but cyclists often position themselves such that a car/car/cyclist cross is possible. The pavements are wide and sightlines excellent.
I have some ideas of my own but as they are relively uninform,ed non-expert speculation I wont share them. I will be interested to hear the facts of the incident in case there are any lessons I can learn from it as this is on my daily commute.
My sympathies are with the deceased's family and friends
best wishes
jamesbest wishes
james0 -
if the bike was going up hill it's likely the MPV has crossed the centre line surely? I can't think of too many reasons for a bike to cross the centre line if they're going quick, cross it far enough to hit a car head on
granted we don't know the fact but we're not going to get them are we?0 -
You know if the guy has overtook and caused this death he deserves the same. We know all they'll get is a fine and ban.
To kill someone as you wanted to knock 20 seconds or so off your car journey.
Be bright Be seen0 -
In just two weeks 45 drivers were caught speeding in the Royal Parks:
http://www.royalparks.org.uk/press/arch ... ase_41.cfm
Cyclists oppose the 30mph limit, with good reason, drivers should get out of the flipping park if they want to drive at lethal speeds:
Cycle Greenwich Park
Greenwich Cyclists are now in discussion with the Royal Parks Police about more cycle routes in the park. We need to know what you'd like.
The roads to the east and west of the Park now have 20mph speed limits, that makes the 30mph limit in the Park itself look even sillier. We're onto that too. ..And the planned merger of the RPP and the Met edges forward.
http://www.greenwichcyclists.org.uk/new ... /pp25.html0 -
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by gazzaputt</i>
You know if the guy has overtook and caused this death he deserves the same. We know all they'll get is a fine and ban.
To kill someone as you wanted to knock 20 seconds or so off your car journey.
Be bright Be seen
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under any circumstances other than a car, it'd be manslaughter0 -
I used this route daily till about 3 years ago. One of the reasons I stopped goign this way was the behaviour of the motor vehicles going down the hill. I used to reach 30 mph easily goign down the hill - the adjacent cycle path is virtually unusable for various reasons. Vehicle drivers would still feel the need to overtake me regardless of the speed I was doing. They'd overtake me at 35 mph and pull in in front of me and slow down to 30 or under, forcing me to jam my brakes on to avoid hitting them from behind. This happened nearly every day - the motorists mantra must be "cars always go in front of cyclists".
A couple of times I had a close call when a car trying to overtake me suddenly found itself face to face with a vehicle coming up the hill, and guess who paid the price for that mistake? Not the motorist! I was lucky though, I managed to get out of the way and without crashing or coming off the bike.
I tried everything, including cycling in the middle of the road - some motorists still tried to overtake, or they'd drive too close behind me, harrassing me.
So now I cycle around the park - it's safer.0 -
RIP, my thoughts are with the friends and family [:(]
Dwaine Dibley!!!?Dwaine Dibley!!!?0 -
That's scary Porgy.
Even in flipping parks drivers can't stop speeding!0 -
Which way do you go 'round Porgy?
I come up to the A2 from Blackheath and I'd go round the park down General Wolfe Rd/Crooms Hill but there are speed bumps and roadworks there for the moment.
The Avenue (through the Park) is by far the quickest way down from where I am, but I do tend to go up from Greenwich on Crooms Hill/General Wolfe Rd due to the lack of traffic - and will do from now on due to the safety aspect too [shudder].0 -
Since I changed jobs last year I don't go that way much. I tend to go down the Maze Hill side, and up Croom's - but haven't been that way for about two months.0
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"Greenwich Cyclists will be discussing the accident and its implications
at their meeting on Wednesday July 4, starting 7.30.p.m in The Armada
Centre, Creek Road , SE8. All welcome to attend. "
It was a very informative meeting.
The fatality in the park was caused by a driver overtaking a slower
moving motor vehicle and hitting the cyclist head on, while the
cyclist was moving slowly up the hill.0 -
Is there any info yet on what will happen to the driver/killer?
£100 fine and a slap on the wrist?Sweat saves blood.
Erwin Rommel0 -
Possibly the scariest thing about this is that it doesnt take a particularly uniquely dangerous driver to cause this sort of accident. Whats the betting the driver was an average family man not a drug dealer or a chav or a drink driver?
Its the "must save a second" mentality that seems to affect MOST drivers. Few and far between are the motorists who WONT carry out a dangerous \ illegal overtaking manouvre exceeding the speed limit if they feel they might get delayed if they dont. Its not a dangerous minority.0 -
DavidTQ wrote:Possibly the scariest thing about this is that it doesnt take a particularly uniquely dangerous driver to cause this sort of accident. Whats the betting the driver was an average family man not a drug dealer or a chav or a drink driver?
Its the "must save a second" mentality that seems to affect MOST drivers. Few and far between are the motorists who WONT carry out a dangerous \ illegal overtaking manouvre exceeding the speed limit if they feel they might get delayed if they dont. Its not a dangerous minority.
True, they are protected by their armour plating in their cars and then backed up by the full protection of the law too. The driver was not harmed in the collision and won't be made to suffer any legal consequences of his actions. A real double whammy for us vulnerable road users. No amount of campaigning will ever change this either so long as the motor industry continues to provide jobs for so many.
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Suzuki Rg250 History~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Porridge not Petrol0 -
I actually do hope he will attract a charge of causing death by dangerous driving, but it will probably just be careless driving. I think there was some talk of creating an offence of 'causing death by careless driving' as 'dangerous driving' charges seem to be so hard to make stick. I think that if it secured more convictions of motorists who cause death, on a more serious level of charge, it would be a good thing. In this particular case it seems to me, just on the known facts of the matter, that the standard of driving must have been so far below what a careful and competent driver would consider reasonable that it ought to attract the death by dangerous driving charge - to overtake at speed without looking or seeing what is oncoming in front of your eyes, in a park, is outrageously poor driving.0
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I was the first police officer on scene. This was an horrific accident.I have met the family of the deceased, and had to come to terms with the whole scenario. The inquest will be held in late January, lets wait and see.0
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Staggering - makes my blood run cold. I used to live near the Heath and I have been up and down that hill countless times. The road in question is fairly narrow with a wide range of road users, many of them (not just cyclists) being vulnerable - it is a park heavily used by families.
I can't remember ever seeing cars overtaking and it certainly sounds a needlessly aggressive manoeuvre.
That road is closed to cars at the weekends and it becomes a delight. Have to question why motorised transport is still tolerated in the various Royal Parks (eg: Hyde, Windsor, Richmond, as well as Greenwich). The Sunday closure of the Mall shows what London could be if it decided to become a modern, civilised European capital that really valued its civic spaces and quality of life.0 -
I've suggested before that manslaughter seems appropriate in these circumstances as manslaughter as I understand it means something along the lines of causing death by accident, presumably where care could have been taken at the death avoided. There is even vehicular manslaughter. Can anyone tell me why this is evidently not appropriate?0
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I think they should introduce the law used in so many european countries where the driver is instantly to blame in an accident with a bike and not an accident0
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MikePrice wrote:I was the first police officer on scene. This was an horrific accident.I have met the family of the deceased, and had to come to terms with the whole scenario. The inquest will be held in late January, lets wait and see.
Don't know how you guys do it myself.
I was first on the scene once (as a member of the public) to a lady that had been hit by a motorbike going round the wrong side of a traffic island at speed.
Her leg was split right open for most of its length, bent double at the bottom with the ends of the bone protruding, and the first thing she said to me was "I'm pregant".
Still chills me to the bone today and its one of those ingrained memories I carry with me (as I'm sure yours will be).
All OK in the end though that one.0 -
domtyler wrote:Its the "must save a second" mentality that seems to affect MOST drivers.
I wouldn't say most, and I figure it affects as many cyclists as well.
Thing is, generally if we're in a hurry and whack somebody whilst on the bike it doesn't usually result in serious injury or death.0
