Refugees Channel crossing

The place for more serious off topic questions, light hearted banter and friendly chat.
User avatar
Rick Chasey
Lives Here
Posts: 43974
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 15:34 pm

Re: Refugees Channel crossing

Postby Rick Chasey » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:24 am

What's the assumption that more people = worse services?

User avatar
rjsterry
Posts: 14937
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 18:26 pm

Re: Refugees Channel crossing

Postby rjsterry » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:25 am

john80 wrote:
hopkinb wrote:
Rick Chasey wrote:"Austerity is the idea that the GFC in 2008 was caused by there being too many libraries in Wolverhampton"

I find it amazing each time a discussion of immigration ends up discussing the consequences of austerity or other domestic political choice issues which have nothing to do with immigration.


Because people are told in the press/news/social media that immigrants are the reason for the pressure on care services/schools/hospitals/housing/gp clinics. Or people hear foreign languages in the waiting room/school playground, where they didn't before, so put 2 and 2 together and make 5.


People are merely reacting to their current position. If they are fighting for housing, healthcare, education etc. then pitching it to them that they should accept more immigration and therefore further erosion of the existing services but it will boost GDP a couple of points is a losing argument. Investing in essential services and infrastructure so that they are already there and then pursuing more immigration might get you a different answer. I am still awaiting a government in my lifetime to propose this proactive solution.

You can be as accommodating as you like to the idea of taking more refugees as it might well be the right thing to do but only a fool would pursue this policy without putting a plan in place to integrate the people and not significantly disadvantage those already resident. If you fail to do this then history shows that this leads to far right groups etc. gaining ground which is never a positive outcome. So lefties get your head out the sky and get some system behind your wish list and the rest of the country might well follow your plan.


I think that's broadly correct, and historically we've been happy to take the extra GDP and tax receipts from immigration but less eager to spend some of it on expanding public services accordingly. That is a political decision, not a logistical one.

We are though again muddling overall migration (hundreds of thousands) with those claiming asylum which is currently <40,000 a year. An order of magnitude difference. The latter we are obliged to accept and consider their applications under international treaty and are well within our capabilities to accommodate if we so chose.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
1980s BSA 10sp

Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.

User avatar
Pross
Posts: 21006
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:32 am

Re: Refugees Channel crossing

Postby Pross » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:28 am

Rick Chasey wrote:What's the assumption that more people = worse services?


It seems to be what some are assuming. I would say it's more people, no additional spending = worse services.

elbowloh
Posts: 1858
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2012 13:53 pm

Re: Refugees Channel crossing

Postby elbowloh » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:32 am

I'm not even sure we need to increase taxes as such. If we could just get people and corporations to pay the tax they actually owe, then i think we'd pay able to pay for a lot more services. It's scandalous that the likes of Vodaphone can negotiate deals to not pay billions of pounds of tax over lunch with the HMRC.
Felt F1 2014
Felt Z6 2012
Red Arthur Caygill steel frame ??
Tall....

HaydenM
Posts: 2594
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2016 09:03 am

Re: Refugees Channel crossing

Postby HaydenM » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:33 am

Things we aren't in favour of (correct me if I'm wrong):

-People dying
-War
-Stretched public services
-Kids not getting the help they need
-People having houses to live in

If we had yes/no referendum on these issues it would be unanimous. None of us want bad stuff to happen, there are just several different ways of getting there.

Also, it's not a lefty idea to fund essential services, the conservatives have spent billions on it. It's just a question of how much is too much. The problem with refugees is that it comes in waves because of geopolitical events, that is quite hard to manage in terms of spending unless we make forward provision when the numbers are lower

User avatar
Rick Chasey
Lives Here
Posts: 43974
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 15:34 pm

Re: Refugees Channel crossing

Postby Rick Chasey » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:35 am

So worth examining some of the assumptions, if people are making an economic case for immigration (which I guess is what this refugee discussion is a proxy for), though, it ought to be added that there is a humanitarian case to be made as well.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/impact ... -services/

User avatar
Pross
Posts: 21006
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:32 am

Re: Refugees Channel crossing

Postby Pross » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:38 am

HaydenM wrote:Things we aren't in favour of (correct me if I'm wrong):

-People dying
-War
-Stretched public services
-Kids not getting the help they need
-People having houses to live in

If we had yes/no referendum on these issues it would be unanimous. None of us want bad stuff to happen, there are just several different ways of getting there.

Also, it's not a lefty idea to fund essential services, the conservatives have spent billions on it. It's just a question of how much is too much. The problem with refugees is that it comes in waves because of geopolitical events, that is quite hard to manage in terms of spending unless we make forward provision when the numbers are lower


I think you're being too kind to part of the population there!

elbowloh
Posts: 1858
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2012 13:53 pm

Re: Refugees Channel crossing

Postby elbowloh » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:40 am

Pross wrote:
HaydenM wrote:Things we aren't in favour of (correct me if I'm wrong):

-People dying
-War
-Stretched public services
-Kids not getting the help they need
-People having houses to live in

If we had yes/no referendum on these issues it would be unanimous. None of us want bad stuff to happen, there are just several different ways of getting there.

Also, it's not a lefty idea to fund essential services, the conservatives have spent billions on it. It's just a question of how much is too much. The problem with refugees is that it comes in waves because of geopolitical events, that is quite hard to manage in terms of spending unless we make forward provision when the numbers are lower


I think you're being too kind to part of the population there!

Yes, the population vote against people dying, but they would probably vote "yes" for capital punishment given the chance.
Felt F1 2014
Felt Z6 2012
Red Arthur Caygill steel frame ??
Tall....

HaydenM
Posts: 2594
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2016 09:03 am

Re: Refugees Channel crossing

Postby HaydenM » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:42 am

Pross wrote:
HaydenM wrote:Things we aren't in favour of (correct me if I'm wrong):

-People dying
-War
-Stretched public services
-Kids not getting the help they need
-People having houses to live in

If we had yes/no referendum on these issues it would be unanimous. None of us want bad stuff to happen, there are just several different ways of getting there.

Also, it's not a lefty idea to fund essential services, the conservatives have spent billions on it. It's just a question of how much is too much. The problem with refugees is that it comes in waves because of geopolitical events, that is quite hard to manage in terms of spending unless we make forward provision when the numbers are lower


I think you're being too kind to part of the population there!


Well probably, but I'm trying to do my bit of un-polarising things! I'm always surprised at how similar most people are once you really get down to what they want for the country in the long run.

User avatar
rjsterry
Posts: 14937
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 18:26 pm

Re: Refugees Channel crossing

Postby rjsterry » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:55 am

Rick Chasey wrote:So worth examining some of the assumptions, if people are making an economic case for immigration (which I guess is what this refugee discussion is a proxy for), though, it ought to be added that there is a humanitarian case to be made as well.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/impact ... -services/


Seems to be. Two different subjects if you ask me.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
1980s BSA 10sp

Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.

Surrey Commuter
Posts: 8292
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 14:09 pm

Re: Refugees Channel crossing

Postby Surrey Commuter » Fri Sep 13, 2019 19:02 pm

bradsbeard wrote:
hopkinb wrote:Because people are told in the press/news/social media that immigrants are the reason for the pressure on care services/schools/hospitals/housing/gp clinics. Or people hear foreign languages in the waiting room/school playground, where they didn't before, so put 2 and 2 together and make 5.


My son and 3 others were being given special support by teaching assistant for a couple hours to help them catch up. My son had a hearing disorder for the first year of school and has struggled. This time had helped him gain ground and he was getting back on course.

Then after xmas the school had to take on a lad who spoke very little and poor english. Therefore my son and the other 3 had the time with the teaching assistant taken away as the assistant's time had to be devoted this lad full time.

I'm afraid these aren't scaremongering stories it really is happening.


In a state school are you able to self-fund a TA/LSA?

Then rather than advocating higher spending and taxation can you fund your own needs?

User avatar
rjsterry
Posts: 14937
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 18:26 pm

Re: Refugees Channel crossing

Postby rjsterry » Fri Sep 13, 2019 19:36 pm

Surrey Commuter wrote:
bradsbeard wrote:
hopkinb wrote:Because people are told in the press/news/social media that immigrants are the reason for the pressure on care services/schools/hospitals/housing/gp clinics. Or people hear foreign languages in the waiting room/school playground, where they didn't before, so put 2 and 2 together and make 5.


My son and 3 others were being given special support by teaching assistant for a couple hours to help them catch up. My son had a hearing disorder for the first year of school and has struggled. This time had helped him gain ground and he was getting back on course.

Then after xmas the school had to take on a lad who spoke very little and poor english. Therefore my son and the other 3 had the time with the teaching assistant taken away as the assistant's time had to be devoted this lad full time.

I'm afraid these aren't scaremongering stories it really is happening.


In a state school are you able to self-fund a TA/LSA?

Then rather than advocating higher spending and taxation can you fund your own needs?


I don't think you can directly, but you could fundraise for the school and ask them to spend it on a TA.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
1980s BSA 10sp

Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.

Surrey Commuter
Posts: 8292
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 14:09 pm

Re: Refugees Channel crossing

Postby Surrey Commuter » Fri Sep 13, 2019 19:45 pm

rjsterry wrote:
Surrey Commuter wrote:
bradsbeard wrote:
hopkinb wrote:Because people are told in the press/news/social media that immigrants are the reason for the pressure on care services/schools/hospitals/housing/gp clinics. Or people hear foreign languages in the waiting room/school playground, where they didn't before, so put 2 and 2 together and make 5.


My son and 3 others were being given special support by teaching assistant for a couple hours to help them catch up. My son had a hearing disorder for the first year of school and has struggled. This time had helped him gain ground and he was getting back on course.

Then after xmas the school had to take on a lad who spoke very little and poor english. Therefore my son and the other 3 had the time with the teaching assistant taken away as the assistant's time had to be devoted this lad full time.

I'm afraid these aren't scaremongering stories it really is happening.


In a state school are you able to self-fund a TA/LSA?

Then rather than advocating higher spending and taxation can you fund your own needs?


I don't think you can directly, but you could fundraise for the school and ask them to spend it on a TA.


A shame as a couple of hours of a TA’s time divided by four would seem to be eminently affordable

User avatar
rjsterry
Posts: 14937
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 18:26 pm

Re: Refugees Channel crossing

Postby rjsterry » Fri Sep 13, 2019 19:54 pm

Surrey Commuter wrote:
rjsterry wrote:
Surrey Commuter wrote:
bradsbeard wrote:
hopkinb wrote:Because people are told in the press/news/social media that immigrants are the reason for the pressure on care services/schools/hospitals/housing/gp clinics. Or people hear foreign languages in the waiting room/school playground, where they didn't before, so put 2 and 2 together and make 5.


My son and 3 others were being given special support by teaching assistant for a couple hours to help them catch up. My son had a hearing disorder for the first year of school and has struggled. This time had helped him gain ground and he was getting back on course.

Then after xmas the school had to take on a lad who spoke very little and poor english. Therefore my son and the other 3 had the time with the teaching assistant taken away as the assistant's time had to be devoted this lad full time.

I'm afraid these aren't scaremongering stories it really is happening.


In a state school are you able to self-fund a TA/LSA?

Then rather than advocating higher spending and taxation can you fund your own needs?


I don't think you can directly, but you could fundraise for the school and ask them to spend it on a TA.


A shame as a couple of hours of a TA’s time divided by four would seem to be eminently affordable


I think it could be done through a PTA, maybe, but it would need a lot of effort in fundraising to be able to reliably employ even one TA. The average primary school event raises, what, <£500? Doesn't pay for many hours even on a TA wage.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
1980s BSA 10sp

Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.

User avatar
Asprilla
Posts: 8312
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 15:31 pm

Re: Refugees Channel crossing

Postby Asprilla » Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:49 am

rjsterry wrote:
Surrey Commuter wrote:
rjsterry wrote:
Surrey Commuter wrote:
bradsbeard wrote:
hopkinb wrote:Because people are told in the press/news/social media that immigrants are the reason for the pressure on care services/schools/hospitals/housing/gp clinics. Or people hear foreign languages in the waiting room/school playground, where they didn't before, so put 2 and 2 together and make 5.


My son and 3 others were being given special support by teaching assistant for a couple hours to help them catch up. My son had a hearing disorder for the first year of school and has struggled. This time had helped him gain ground and he was getting back on course.

Then after xmas the school had to take on a lad who spoke very little and poor english. Therefore my son and the other 3 had the time with the teaching assistant taken away as the assistant's time had to be devoted this lad full time.

I'm afraid these aren't scaremongering stories it really is happening.


In a state school are you able to self-fund a TA/LSA?

Then rather than advocating higher spending and taxation can you fund your own needs?


I don't think you can directly, but you could fundraise for the school and ask them to spend it on a TA.


A shame as a couple of hours of a TA’s time divided by four would seem to be eminently affordable


I think it could be done through a PTA, maybe, but it would need a lot of effort in fundraising to be able to reliably employ even one TA. The average primary school event raises, what, <£500? Doesn't pay for many hours even on a TA wage.


Our three events a year raise about £30k in total. If you need any advice on how to increase your fund raising them I'm happy to help.
Mud - Genesis Vapour CCX
Race - Fuji Norcom Straight
Sun - Cervelo R3
Winter / Commute - Dolan ADX

User avatar
Ben6899
Posts: 7041
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 19:49 pm

Re: Refugees Channel crossing

Postby Ben6899 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:45 pm

Tangled Metal wrote:Ok my point is that anti immigration arguments totally forget that it's just people. We're not talking about monsters we need to keep out. It's people like us. Even economic migrants are people like us. Why are they not fit to have the same western life as us? Perhaps people would benefit from a life swap with them.


You'll be tarred with the "leftie" brush, if you're not careful!

(well said)
Ben

Bikes: Donhou DSS4 Custom | Condor Italia RC | Gios Megalite | Dolan Preffisio | Giant Bowery '76
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ben_h_ppcc/
Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/143173475@N05/

User avatar
Alejandrosdog
Posts: 1927
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2019 20:16 pm

Re: Refugees Channel crossing

Postby Alejandrosdog » Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:49 pm

Ben6899 wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:Ok my point is that anti immigration arguments totally forget that it's just people. We're not talking about monsters we need to keep out. It's people like us. Even economic migrants are people like us. Why are they not fit to have the same western life as us? Perhaps people would benefit from a life swap with them.


You'll be tarred with the "leftie" brush, if you're not careful!

(well said)



Perhaps they should stay at home and fight for their own families. do something useful and improve their countries and quality of life rather than diluting the quality of other peoples.

Surrey Commuter
Posts: 8292
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 14:09 pm

Re: Refugees Channel crossing

Postby Surrey Commuter » Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:55 pm

Alejandrosdog wrote:
Ben6899 wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:Ok my point is that anti immigration arguments totally forget that it's just people. We're not talking about monsters we need to keep out. It's people like us. Even economic migrants are people like us. Why are they not fit to have the same western life as us? Perhaps people would benefit from a life swap with them.


You'll be tarred with the "leftie" brush, if you're not careful!

(well said)



Perhaps they should stay at home and fight for their own families. do something useful and improve their countries and quality of life rather than diluting the quality of other peoples.


To avoid dilution Could we not swap the well qualified hard, working ones with our home grown wasters?

User avatar
Alejandrosdog
Posts: 1927
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2019 20:16 pm

Re: Refugees Channel crossing

Postby Alejandrosdog » Mon Sep 16, 2019 13:06 pm

I think their countries need all the hard working qualified ones they can get. Happy to send our wasters over there to help them out :)

Tangled Metal
Posts: 3922
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 08:54 am

Re: Refugees Channel crossing

Postby Tangled Metal » Mon Sep 16, 2019 14:02 pm

Surrey Commuter wrote:
Alejandrosdog wrote:
Ben6899 wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:Ok my point is that anti immigration arguments totally forget that it's just people. We're not talking about monsters we need to keep out. It's people like us. Even economic migrants are people like us. Why are they not fit to have the same western life as us? Perhaps people would benefit from a life swap with them.


You'll be tarred with the "leftie" brush, if you're not careful!

(well said)



Perhaps they should stay at home and fight for their own families. do something useful and improve their countries and quality of life rather than diluting the quality of other peoples.


To avoid dilution Could we not swap the well qualified hard, working ones with our home grown wasters?

Too right? We have plenty diluting the quality of life from our own lot. Arguably quality of life would improve if we did a talent swap. We get their talent and they get our dossers.

It's not useful to earn more over here, and a supposedly hard currency, to send back home? Oh well I live and learn.


Return to “The Cake Stop”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: diplodicus, Surrey Commuter and 12 guests