BREXIT - Bercow & Swinson Meet Their EU Bosses to Receive New Orders

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rjsterry
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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby rjsterry » Thu Sep 12, 2019 14:46 pm

Meanwhile in Downing Street...

"Why don't you mention that bridge over the Irish Sea again? That'll through them off all this Prorogation court case stuff."
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Rolf F
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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby Rolf F » Thu Sep 12, 2019 14:58 pm

rjsterry wrote:Meanwhile in Downing Street...

"Why don't you mention that bridge over the Irish Sea again? That'll through them off all this Prorogation court case stuff."


Trumps Mini-me.......
Faster than a tent.......

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TheBigBean
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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby TheBigBean » Thu Sep 12, 2019 15:24 pm

KingstonGraham wrote:
TheBigBean wrote:
rjsterry wrote:
Stevo 666 wrote:
rjsterry wrote:By the way, Rosamund Urwin who reported the leaked version in August, has tweeted that the redacted section is that ND will render UK refined petrol uncompetitive for export. The plan for 0% tariff on imports will mean that they undercut UK refineries. In other words UK refineries will go the way of sheep farmers.

Exactly like a couple of days of snow.

This has got lost a few pages back given the pace of posting on here, but clearly in a No Deal situation, the UK could if it wanted selectively impose tariffs on imports of certain products or classes of products to protect things like refineries. Provided it treats all such products equally regardless of source, should not be in breach of WTO regs etc.


I'm sure it could. The point (including the 0% tariff on imports) was part of the government's document, not my argument.


Is everyone pro petrol now? Life outside the EU will make subsidising renewables much easier.


I've a feeling this may be another area where this forum might not be a 100% representative sample of the entire population. I'm all for increased petrol prices.


My suspicion is that we may be in a minority on this point and that the forum is actually more representative. There's usually outcry whenever petrol prices increase.

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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby john80 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 15:28 pm

TheBigBean wrote:
KingstonGraham wrote:
TheBigBean wrote:
rjsterry wrote:
Stevo 666 wrote:
rjsterry wrote:By the way, Rosamund Urwin who reported the leaked version in August, has tweeted that the redacted section is that ND will render UK refined petrol uncompetitive for export. The plan for 0% tariff on imports will mean that they undercut UK refineries. In other words UK refineries will go the way of sheep farmers.

Exactly like a couple of days of snow.

This has got lost a few pages back given the pace of posting on here, but clearly in a No Deal situation, the UK could if it wanted selectively impose tariffs on imports of certain products or classes of products to protect things like refineries. Provided it treats all such products equally regardless of source, should not be in breach of WTO regs etc.


I'm sure it could. The point (including the 0% tariff on imports) was part of the government's document, not my argument.


Is everyone pro petrol now? Life outside the EU will make subsidising renewables much easier.


I've a feeling this may be another area where this forum might not be a 100% representative sample of the entire population. I'm all for increased petrol prices.


My suspicion is that we may be in a minority on this point and that the forum is actually more representative. There's usually outcry whenever petrol prices increase.


Generally the outcry was more in the days of the tax escalator where the view was that we should price it higher due to tax increases but not provide over 50% of the country that is not a city and alternative option. If it is related to oil prices then consumers are a bit more relaxed in my experience.

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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby Fenix » Thu Sep 12, 2019 15:46 pm

TheBigBean wrote:Is everyone pro petrol now? Life outside the EU will make subsidising renewables much easier.


With WHAT will we be able to subsidise renewables ?

We will be closing the car and aerospace industry and refineries.

Oh and the sheep farmers too.

And anything that relies on a supply chain across Europe.

We won't have two brass farthings to rub together. Let alone subsidise renewables.

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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby PhilipPirrip » Thu Sep 12, 2019 15:51 pm

Don't know if anyone's mentioned this but an intersting piece from the Scottish court case;

The Petitioners wrote to Johnson earlier this week asking him to give a formal undertaking to the Court that he would comply with his obligation to send a letter to the European Union asking for an extension – but no such undertaking was given.

The proceedings have been issued in Scotland because the Inner House has a power not possessed by the English Courts – its nobile officium – which would allow it to sign the letter mandated by the Benn Act if the Prime Minister refuses to do so.

Jolyon Maugham QC said:

“The Inner House of the Court of Session has a special and versatile jurisdiction – its nobile officium – which it can use to, in effect, per procurationem (ie ‘pp’) any letter that the Prime Minister refuses to send.


https://goodlawproject.org/rule-law-not ... -minister/

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TheBigBean
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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby TheBigBean » Thu Sep 12, 2019 15:55 pm

bompington wrote:
TheBigBean wrote:Is everyone pro petrol now? Life outside the EU will make subsidising renewables much easier.

Wonderful how Brexit can be all things to all people. Most Brexiteers have been arguing about escaping from the overbearing EU environmental legislation, but it turns out that we're going to be greener than them too!

Still, at least the UK has been taking the lead within these appalling EU constraints:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... commission
Oh, hang on a minute...

Didn't put TBB down for a subsidy junkie TBH. Contrarian going on troll - that's another matter...


A significant part of the UK fossil fuel subsidies identified by the commission is the 5% rate of VAT on domestic gas and electricity, cut from the standard 20%. The UK government did not dispute the data but denied that it provided any subsidies for fossil fuels under its own definition and that of the International Energy Agency.


There are also subsidies for the capacity market (currently suspended by EU) which is a mechanism to keep the lights on, but ultimately it takes money from renewables and gives it to other generators.

Economists vary in the degree to which they accept market intervention, but one on which almost all agree it is required is for environmental reasons. This is the reason that the EU agrees to some state aid for renewables.

If the UK is to be net zero by 2050 (as per legislation) it is highly likely to require subsidies.

And, as I said before, doctor heal thyself.

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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby sungod » Thu Sep 12, 2019 16:03 pm

the known and proven liar johnson has denied lying to the queen

yeah, sure
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rjsterry
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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby rjsterry » Thu Sep 12, 2019 16:17 pm

PhilipPirrip wrote:Don't know if anyone's mentioned this but an intersting piece from the Scottish court case;

The Petitioners wrote to Johnson earlier this week asking him to give a formal undertaking to the Court that he would comply with his obligation to send a letter to the European Union asking for an extension – but no such undertaking was given.

The proceedings have been issued in Scotland because the Inner House has a power not possessed by the English Courts – its nobile officium – which would allow it to sign the letter mandated by the Benn Act if the Prime Minister refuses to do so.

Jolyon Maugham QC said:

“The Inner House of the Court of Session has a special and versatile jurisdiction – its nobile officium – which it can use to, in effect, per procurationem (ie ‘pp’) any letter that the Prime Minister refuses to send.


https://goodlawproject.org/rule-law-not ... -minister/


That is interesting.
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darkhairedlord
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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby darkhairedlord » Thu Sep 12, 2019 16:21 pm

PhilipPirrip wrote:Don't know if anyone's mentioned this but an intersting piece from the Scottish court case;

The Petitioners wrote to Johnson earlier this week asking him to give a formal undertaking to the Court that he would comply with his obligation to send a letter to the European Union asking for an extension – but no such undertaking was given.

The proceedings have been issued in Scotland because the Inner House has a power not possessed by the English Courts – its nobile officium – which would allow it to sign the letter mandated by the Benn Act if the Prime Minister refuses to do so.

Jolyon Maugham QC said:

“The Inner House of the Court of Session has a special and versatile jurisdiction – its nobile officium – which it can use to, in effect, per procurationem (ie ‘pp’) any letter that the Prime Minister refuses to send.


https://goodlawproject.org/rule-law-not ... -minister/

So if he refuses to send a request for extension the Scottish court can send it. Would that make bj as pm untenable?

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Stevo 666
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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby Stevo 666 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 16:25 pm

bompington wrote:
Stevo 666 wrote:
rjsterry wrote:By the way, Rosamund Urwin who reported the leaked version in August, has tweeted that the redacted section is that ND will render UK refined petrol uncompetitive for export. The plan for 0% tariff on imports will mean that they undercut UK refineries. In other words UK refineries will go the way of sheep farmers.

Exactly like a couple of days of snow.

This has got lost a few pages back given the pace of posting on here, but clearly in a No Deal situation, the UK could if it wanted selectively impose tariffs on imports of certain products or classes of products to protect things like refineries. Provided it treats all such products equally regardless of source, should not be in breach of WTO regs etc.

British fuel for British cars, what's not to like?
Apart from the fact that the refineries will lose all their export income, so they'll close down.

Relevant part that I was referring to is highlighted. We can always match any EU tariffs on our exports with the same level of tariff on he same product/product class that is imported. Then it's a question of who imports or exports more of the stuff.
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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby Robert88 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 16:40 pm

Isn't refining stuff rather important to our gdp? Not a good idea to do all this protective stuff over.

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rjsterry
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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby rjsterry » Thu Sep 12, 2019 17:09 pm

Stevo 666 wrote:
bompington wrote:
Stevo 666 wrote:
rjsterry wrote:By the way, Rosamund Urwin who reported the leaked version in August, has tweeted that the redacted section is that ND will render UK refined petrol uncompetitive for export. The plan for 0% tariff on imports will mean that they undercut UK refineries. In other words UK refineries will go the way of sheep farmers.

Exactly like a couple of days of snow.

This has got lost a few pages back given the pace of posting on here, but clearly in a No Deal situation, the UK could if it wanted selectively impose tariffs on imports of certain products or classes of products to protect things like refineries. Provided it treats all such products equally regardless of source, should not be in breach of WTO regs etc.

British fuel for British cars, what's not to like?
Apart from the fact that the refineries will lose all their export income, so they'll close down.

Relevant part that I was referring to is highlighted. We can always match any EU tariffs on our exports with the same level of tariff on he same product/product class that is imported. Then it's a question of who imports or exports more of the stuff.

We can, but the stated plan is to set them at zero, presumably to avoid outrage at petrol stations. Why anyone would be worried about pushing up petrol prices, but happy to endorse the much bigger impact of leaving the EU is another question, but I have long since stopped expecting things to make sense.
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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby morstar » Thu Sep 12, 2019 17:12 pm

Stevo 666 wrote:
bompington wrote:
Stevo 666 wrote:
rjsterry wrote:By the way, Rosamund Urwin who reported the leaked version in August, has tweeted that the redacted section is that ND will render UK refined petrol uncompetitive for export. The plan for 0% tariff on imports will mean that they undercut UK refineries. In other words UK refineries will go the way of sheep farmers.

Exactly like a couple of days of snow.

This has got lost a few pages back given the pace of posting on here, but clearly in a No Deal situation, the UK could if it wanted selectively impose tariffs on imports of certain products or classes of products to protect things like refineries. Provided it treats all such products equally regardless of source, should not be in breach of WTO regs etc.

British fuel for British cars, what's not to like?
Apart from the fact that the refineries will lose all their export income, so they'll close down.

Relevant part that I was referring to is highlighted. We can always match any EU tariffs on our exports with the same level of tariff on he same product/product class that is imported. Then it's a question of who imports or exports more of the stuff.

Not my area of expertise but I think you've missed some key details.
Currently we have no tariffs between ourselves and Europe but do with ROW. Therefore exporting fuel to Europe works because it is tariff free whereas from gulf it isn't.
When EU becomes part of ROW, we now either have tariffs with everybody or nobody.
At this point, our fuel is overpriced as our cost of production is higher than ROW.
All a tariff can do is the British petrol for British people thing already suggested.
No tariff wipes out our industry, a tariff makes our fuel even more uncompetitive.


https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... allowances

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Stevo 666
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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby Stevo 666 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 17:12 pm

Robert88 wrote:Isn't refining stuff rather important to our gdp? Not a good idea to do all this protective stuff over.

That is why we would do it.

Rates and contribution to the economy here: if we impose 4.7% then it's a level playing field. If so, they could cut petrol excise duty to keep a lid on the price in the UK.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49425202
The govt said they would change tariffs if needed.
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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby Stevo 666 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 17:13 pm

morstar wrote:
Stevo 666 wrote:
bompington wrote:
Stevo 666 wrote:
rjsterry wrote:By the way, Rosamund Urwin who reported the leaked version in August, has tweeted that the redacted section is that ND will render UK refined petrol uncompetitive for export. The plan for 0% tariff on imports will mean that they undercut UK refineries. In other words UK refineries will go the way of sheep farmers.

Exactly like a couple of days of snow.

This has got lost a few pages back given the pace of posting on here, but clearly in a No Deal situation, the UK could if it wanted selectively impose tariffs on imports of certain products or classes of products to protect things like refineries. Provided it treats all such products equally regardless of source, should not be in breach of WTO regs etc.

British fuel for British cars, what's not to like?
Apart from the fact that the refineries will lose all their export income, so they'll close down.

Relevant part that I was referring to is highlighted. We can always match any EU tariffs on our exports with the same level of tariff on he same product/product class that is imported. Then it's a question of who imports or exports more of the stuff.

Not my area of expertise but I think you've missed some key details.
Currently we have no tariffs between ourselves and Europe but do with ROW. Therefore exporting fuel to Europe works because it is tariff free whereas from gulf it isn't.
When EU becomes part of ROW, we now either have tariffs with everybody or nobody.
At this point, our fuel is overpriced as our cost of production is higher than ROW.
All a tariff can do is the British petrol for British people thing already suggested.
No tariff wipes out our industry, a tariff makes our fuel even more uncompetitive.


https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... allowances

See my post above.
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rjsterry
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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby rjsterry » Thu Sep 12, 2019 17:32 pm

Stevo 666 wrote:
Robert88 wrote:Isn't refining stuff rather important to our gdp? Not a good idea to do all this protective stuff over.

That is why we would do it.

Rates and contribution to the economy here: if we impose 4.7% then it's a level playing field. If so, they could cut petrol excise duty to keep a lid on the price in the UK.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49425202
The govt said they would change tariffs if needed.

That makes more sense.
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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby DrHaggis » Thu Sep 12, 2019 17:40 pm

TheBigBean wrote:If the UK is to be net zero by 2050 (as per legislation) it is highly likely to require subsidies.


Surely net zero is feasible if we nuke the entire economy? Maybe not the best way to do it, though...

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Mr Goo
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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby Mr Goo » Thu Sep 12, 2019 18:23 pm

Yellow Hammer document is a bureaucratic 'Worst Case' scenario without any mitigation should we leave EU without deal.
Pre take off safety videos on planes are worst case scenarios with mitigation. And we continue to fly on planes.
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orraloon
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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby orraloon » Thu Sep 12, 2019 18:34 pm

Mr Goo wrote:...And we continue to fly on planes.

We fly on planes because the pilots are trained, competent, are continually tested and assessed, know what they are doing, have specific detailed flight plans in place, and actually want to get to the destination in one piece no question.

Now I look at de Pfeffel, Gove, and the rest of that faction of the Con jobs and go nah, would trust none of them, let me off.


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